Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti · Riffology: Iconic Rock Albums Podcast

Neil0:11 Mythology. Where's that from?

Chris0:16 What? The scale that I just used. It was Led Zeppelin scale.

Neil0:19 Was it?

Chris0:20 Yeah.

Neil0:20 Was it a minor scale?

Chris0:21 It knows both, actually. It had a major third and. And then.

Neil0:24 No way.

Chris0:24 Yeah, I did both at the same.

Neil0:25 I didn't know you could do that.

Chris0:26 Well. Well, you can because, you know.

Neil0:28 Are you allowed to do that?

Chris0:29 No, but I like that.

Neil0:31 I like that you're not allowed to. And you did it.

Chris0:34 No, there are no. People don't like it.

Neil0:36 Do they know.

Chris0:38 But it's all right, you see, because Led Zeppelin did things like that.

Neil0:42 They were bonkers, weren't they? Yeah, properly bonkers. They did. They did just stuff you. You. That you can't pin them down. This album we're going to cover Physical Graffiti and it's an album that is like four mini. I think. So it feels to me like four mini albums together. And you know the thing that hit me, This. I struggled with this. It's not like there are. There are big hitters on here that obviously I know the first four or five tracks I quite like.

Chris1:15 Yeah.

Neil1:16 And then the album like just meanders off for me.

Chris1:18 Yeah.

Neil1:20 And it's when you realize that this album was built around vinyl.

Chris1:27 Yeah.

Neil1:27 And it's a double vinyl. So that there are four sides. So there's the. You know, you flip your disc and. And as soon as that kind of the penny drops and you just. Like that. That's kind of what this is. It's. It's, you know, like Dark side of the Moon.

Chris1:44 Yeah.

Neil1:44 Is. Is meant. It's meant to fl. The fact that you've got to flip the record over is a pain in the ass because it feels like one whole piece. This feels like 4 smaller. And I think it was. This was a proper. It was a total melting pot of stuff. It wasn't. It wasn't like all recorded on the same time. I don't know. How do you know? The thing that hit me with this as well, doing the research. I don't know how they made it sound like. Because it sounds really coherent. It sounds production. Sounds like. It sounds like it was all recorded. Like, musically it doesn't. But production. It sounds like it was all recorded in one place by the same dudes.

Chris2:17 Yeah. Yeah.

Neil2:19 And. But it wasn't at all. It was. It was. This is over five years or so, wasn't it?

Chris2:23 Yeah, well, I think the initial sessions were actually. Well, I would say the fragments of the beginning of this album are the other albums.

Neil2:33 Yeah.

Chris2:34 It's like the little. The B sides or the jams that were recorded or the, you know, the seeds of this project were actually, you know, some of the things that didn't make it on the other projects. So, like. So, like, there's an album called Houses of the Holy.

Neil2:48 Yeah.

Chris2:48 With no song on it called Houses.

Neil2:50 It was supposed to be on it, wasn't it? It was supposed to be on it and then got cut.

Chris2:54 Yeah. And then he goes on this instead.

Neil2:56 And then. Yeah.

Chris2:57 I think that's the thing about Led Zeppelin, to me, is that. Is that they. That doesn't seem to be a, like, rules, you know, like, we're doing what we want to do.

Neil3:06 Yeah.

Chris3:07 And they. Well, we're going to put this out on our label now. We're going to put this out, like, in our way. Jimmy Page was just an absolute nerd when it came to recording techniques.

Neil3:16 Yeah, that's true.

Chris3:16 Multi tracking, layering.

Neil3:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris3:20 That kind of approach.

Neil3:21 Yeah.

Chris3:22 And so, you know, he. He was just. He loved the archiving. He loved going through the archives, figuring out the things and then making new shapes from it.

Neil3:30 So that's what it's. I love the description of him where it said he's. He's. He's more like a painter than a musician.

Chris3:36 Yeah.

Neil3:37 In that he will. He's like painting and adding like. Like layers over the top of things. Like before, others were doing the similar in, you know, in the way that. In the way that he did it. But, yeah, he's. He's a. Yeah, so he's a really interesting guy, I think. And he's, you know, that. I don't know that with the band as a whole. I mean, like, there's no, like, no singles, no videos. The Atlantic in the uk. Atlantic forced the release of singles in the us.

Chris4:15 Yeah.

Neil4:16 But the band never did videos for them or anything that never did it. They were just like, what? You know, whatever.

Chris4:20 Yeah. It's an album.

Neil4:22 We're not doing anything here.

Chris4:24 You do what you do. You. But, yeah, we're sort of.

Neil4:26 And it was. It was bizarre. And this one, of course, was on their own label.

Chris4:30 Yeah. They licensed through because they control.

Neil4:33 So they had their own label, but then released it through the old record label.

Chris4:37 Yeah.

Neil4:37 You know, what is going on?

Chris4:39 Yeah, but I think it was more the idea that, like, we're. We're Led Zeppelin. We do Led Zeppelin stuff.

Neil4:44 Yeah.

Chris4:45 And you've started to sort of try and tell us what to do, and we're not going to do that. So if you want to put our records out, that's fine. But you're not telling us what to do, so we're. That's like. That's control.

Neil4:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. It is. Like, for me, this is. This is peak classic rock.

Chris5:02 Yeah, yeah.

Neil5:03 You know what I mean? I think this is getting to that point. 1975. This is getting to a point, I think, where. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think this is getting to a point where, like, the rock bands did not have much more sway than they had.

Chris5:20 Yeah.

Neil5:20 If you think about 1975, you had. You had the Rolling Stones. I mean, the Beatles had been split up for a while by this.

Chris5:27 Yeah, yeah. I think you've kind of gone through that and then.

Neil5:29 Yeah, and then. But you've got like, you. You got the. The who. You've got Pink Floyd, David Bowie. You know, this for me was like peak, like rock God.

Chris5:40 Yeah.

Neil5:40 Territory.

Chris5:41 Yeah.

Neil5:41 This is where. And. And I think, like, the influence of this era is still felt today. It was an interesting.

Chris5:51 Well, they're legends, aren't they? When you say those words, those names, those phrases.

Neil5:54 Yeah, yeah.

Chris5:55 Like you mentioned those names. And there's a certain amount of reverence that comes. Comes with that. Like, there was a period of time where if you'd say, oh, I like Led Zeppelin.

Neil6:03 Yeah.

Chris6:03 You'd have been. And be like, yeah, I like David Bowie. Oh, my God, you don'. Him do.

Neil6:09 Yeah, yeah.

Chris6:09 You know, like, he's like an old foot.

Neil6:11 Like old music, punk rock came along and made it. Because punk wasn't quite thing.

Chris6:17 Yeah. It hadn't landed yet.

Neil6:18 It was fitting together, it was bubbling, but it didn't. It didn't exist yet. So, like, this hadn't become like, pass yet. And it did like you say, it did for maybe 10, 15 years, didn't it? And then. And then people came back to it. Yeah.

Chris6:31 But even now, like, people are wearing Led Zeppelin shirts and it's a cool thing to wear. Yeah, people wear Bowie shirts. It's a cool thing to wear.

Neil6:37 There's a lovely bit with Maynard from Tool talking about the ballads in Tool songs being built on cashmere and taking that as the. The blueprint of what, how, you know, how a song can be.

Chris6:54 I mean, Kashmir. Kashmir in itself is just. It's the power of the riff.

Neil6:58 Oh, God.

Chris6:58 Isn't it? I mean, what a riff. And it's been used everywhere on so many different things. It's such a. It's like an iconic of all of all the great Led Zeppelin riffs that exist, you know, like Black Dog or like a whole lot of love Stairway.

Neil7:14 Stairway.

Chris7:14 Yeah.

Neil7:14 It's not really a riff, is it? Stairway?

Chris7:16 No. Yeah, No, I suppose it. Yeah. Yeah. A whole, whole lot of love and that, you know, one. Things like that. And then all of a sudden, you know, cashmere lands and it's. And it's a totally different feel. It's not that rock and roll feel. It's got a sort of different energy to it. In fact, the whole thing's got quite an Eastern sound to it. But it's got nothing to do with India because they wrote it when he was driving in North Africa. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Neil7:44 I had a long piece of music that I'd been working on, and just on the tail end of it, I just was sort of just jamming and I. And I had that riff. I had the sort of cascade, which is the trumpet parts and brass parts, and then it goes into the riff and it was on the tail end of something. And I thought, uh, oh, this is something I really want to try. And I started working on the riff at home because it's around. It keeps going, you know, round and catching up with itself. And I just couldn't wait to get in Hedley Granger, John Bonham and do that. Let the sun beat down upon my face Stars to fill my dream I'm a traveler of all time and space to be where I am Me sit with elders of a generation this world seldom slee Top of days for which they sit away all will be revealed. Talking song from tongues of living Grace sounds caressed my ear Not a word I heard could I relate Story was quite clear Whoa. Ra. No, yeah Ain't no deny. Mama ma. All I see turns to brown. As the sun There is a brow. And my eyes fill it. As I scare this rap. Leaves no trace like shorts inside a dream he's the map that led me to that place Yellow desert stories Green My sh. Love Beneath the summer moon I will return again here and the des it looks I'm moving through me. Oh, farther up before winds fill my sails Cross the sea of fear with no provision but an open face Knowing the straits of fear W W Sam. Sa. When I see the way. Saving my baby Let me take you. I think it's important to sort of. To look at the whole phenomena of Led Zeppelin, because what it was was it was a touring touring vehicle, and it was touring, playing and including the music from each of the new albums. So we'd just gone through a real lengthy process of touring and we had a bit of a Break like, you know, time for people to go on holiday and that with their families. And then, then, then the, the recording date was put in. In the schedule and what, what it was was to actually return back to Headley Grange where we'd done the fourth album, and have a mobile recording truck, a multi track truck. So we could do exactly the same. We could do the exactly the same thing that we did before, which was be in residence, but, you know, just eat, breathe, almost sleep music and be able to push this whole idea that we did on the fourth album even further and in a really concentrated, focused way. I was so keen to be able to go back to, to Headley. It was our second, our second visit there. But. But from the first visit we'd got to really under. Well, I really understood what could be done there and how we could record there in what rooms and. And we had the. The benefit of the. Of the hallway which gave this massive drum sound. And I, and I wanted to return back to have all of these. These sonic options that you're at your disposable, you know, for the. For the recording, push it even further. So I actually had quite a number of songs, complete songs like ten Years Gone, but ideas that I wanted to try. And one of the things that I had was Kashmir and the riff of Kashmir, this sort of riff that would go round and round and round because literally musically it's called a rond round and that's what it would do. And this idea of having these interventions of the cascading. It was like electric 12 string I was doing at the time, but to be brass and cellos to replicate the riff. I had this idea in my head, but I was itching to get there with John Bonham and play this riff because I knew and he just loved it. And we just played it over and over and over and over because it was just the two of us working there at that point of time. And I. And with him I started bringing out all these ideas that I had, like the Sick Again and Wanton Song and all these things. And it was just. It was just really great, you know, it was really. It was really great because I knew that we. That we. That that alone. The stuff that I was bringing in was. It was a really good, substantial start to everything but the. The fact that numbers would come out of thin air like rock and roll had on the fourth album and like trampled underfoot. You know, the things that sort of just come from like an initial sort of John Paul Jones vamping on the electric Piano and it, you know, the whole thing starts growing and moving and Robert's on fire. And we got this. This sort of version on the companion disc without all the overdubs. Because the overdubs are really, really right and they're that. That they're really. They really work with it. But to hear just as raw force of that In My Time Of Dying and all these things are superb. Before going in there, you sort of instinctively knew in the pit of your stomach that it was going to be great, that wonderful things were going to happen. And in fact they did. It's quite a psychedelic sounding record. And for me it's like, I don't. It took me a while to figure out what was going on. Why? Because a rock album and what, like, why am I getting these psychedelic vibes from it? And I think it's that there's such a lot of repetition underneath in the rhythm section. There's a huge amount of repetition. Like. Like overly.

Chris20:34 Yeah.

Neil20:34 Which you probably wouldn't get from. I mean, I mean, David Bowie maybe, but you, you, you wouldn't. You wouldn't get that at this time quite as much.

Chris20:45 No.

Neil20:47 And it gives it. I don't know, it gives it this almost like. Like trance like feel, you know, it kind of pulls you in and you're not quite sure whereabouts in the song you are. You can get lost in the songs, if that makes sense. You know, you can kind of get a little bit lost in them. I don't know. There is just something really like. I can see why in the 70s people were like, you know, there's albums that you would put on there and just completely lose yourself to. And you can see why this would have been one of those records, you know what I mean?

Chris21:17 Well, isn't it? It's the best part of an hour and a half long, isn't it?

Neil21:19 It is something like that.

Chris21:22 Seven minutes. So, yeah, an hour, 20, whatever. And all the songs are like 10 minutes. They're not even, you know, they're not even like seven minutes or six minutes. There's some that are like 11. And.

Neil21:32 Well, they vary, don't they? Like Custard Pie.

Chris21:35 Quite like that.

Neil21:35 Four minutes.

Chris21:36 Yeah. Those first few of five.

Neil21:38 In my time of dying 11, that's the longest studio track they ever did. Yeah. Gets tagged as traditional gospel blues was also recorded by Bob Dylan. Now Houses of the Holy. Four minutes. Trampled Underfoot, five minutes. That's the end of the first chunk. Right. And that for me, that. I love those, that first. Those first five. I'm good. I'm in there.

Chris22:05 Even another 11 minute one,

Neil22:08 maybe. I might skip that one.

Chris22:10 Skip that.

Neil22:10 And then cashmere comes in like on the. You've just turned your record over and then you get Cashmere. Moroccan inspired, but just. Yeah, just bonkers. Then. Then you've got like. In the Light is eight minutes.

Chris22:26 Yeah, I like that one.

Neil22:27 I'm gonna say this wrong, but Bron

Chris22:28 E. Yeah, that's the bit where I start liking the album, actually.

Neil22:32 Oh, is it that kind of acoustic? It's funny. It sounds like it's been written on a beach. That does to me. It's got this lovely sound to it. Sa.

Chris24:25 The name of that song is the Shack that They Stayed in for three. Yeah, for three. And then that was part, that was part of those. That acoustic piece was recorded as part of that, I think.

Neil24:34 Apparently it's got, apparently it's got no electricity. Yeah, that, that, that shack, 1970.

Chris24:39 It wasn't recorded there. That's what was written. But yeah.

Neil24:42 Yeah. I don't know.

Chris24:43 Oh, unless they had his mobile, a mobile generator going. Yeah, no, it wasn't. Didn't they borrow one of the guys with the faces? Generator or generator? It was like a studio in a truck.

Neil24:57 Oh, is Rolling Stones have one of those?

Chris25:00 Yeah, I think it was the same one. I think it was, I think it was the. Yeah, it was, it was raw.

Neil25:03 Oh, God.

Chris25:04 What? Who was it? Ron Lane?

Neil25:09 I don't know.

Chris25:10 Ron Lane's truck.

Neil25:11 I don't know. This, this one was recorded at Headley Grange. Yeah. Oh, with Ronnie Lane's mobile studio.

Chris25:19 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Neil25:21 Olympic Studios, Island Studios, all in London. And then it was mastered, I think at Electric Lady Studios.

Chris25:28 Yeah.

Neil25:30 Which is, I find it, I find it interesting because it sounds the, the, it doesn't sound like it's had any American production. No, this sounds like a very, this is what English rock music sounded like in the 70s. And I, I, I did not, I didn't know this was, this was done in the U.S. or, you know, mastered in the U.S. i'd kind of assume it would, would, would have had a slightly different sound to it, but especially in New York as well. It doesn't, it's, yeah, really interesting. I think that one, it's really, really complicated. And I was talking about this the other day and I said, well, there was a lot to remember. And person who's interviewing me sort of looked as though he didn't really understand that. Just how much you have to remember when you go 1, 2, 3, 4, and you start and you're going to get right through to the end of, as you say, 11 minutes. And it's got all these sort of different changes. And first time the pause will come, it might be six beats that you're gonna do in a pause. The next time that pause comes, it might be eight beats. Do you know what I mean? It's all this sort of thing and it's such a musical landscape to remember, but there was just this fusion of the four of us and it was just phenomenal. Satan, all I want for you to do Take my body. Is. Meet me, Jesus oh, meet me in the middle of the air in my wings should fail below Please meet me with another yeah. Oh did somebody so good I must say It's a mother some good day I believe I did. I see the smiling faces I know I'm eyes feeling. I see them in the field I hear. All the. I want to have some fun. Oh my Jesus oh my Jesus oh my Jesus oh my Jesus oh my Jesus oh my Jesus My Jesus oh my Jesus oh my Jesus oh my Jesus oh God be my tears. It's got to be, it's got to be my favorite. It's got to be, It's got to be my savior. Come on, come on I can hear the angel singing.

Chris35:53 My mind, my mind, my body, my mind.

Neil36:11 Jesus. Come on. I know. It's one that's really, really a favorite of fans because it, because it's a double album. There's just so much character work on it. And so one thing about Led Zeppelin was it wasn't a format band and it wasn't trying to replicate old singles of their. Of your own, you know, and being caught in that trap. We'd have rehearsals and all the rest. All the time we would be pushing and pushing ourselves.

Chris37:34 And I think that's the thing for me about Led Zeppelin that I didn't really ever understand. I think when I was learning about Led Zeppelin or things I'd heard about Led Zeppelin, it was always like rock and roll or you know, popular. The popular ones. The more. All the popular ones.

Neil37:54 Yeah.

Chris37:57 And, and what you forget is that actually that, you know, these guys were really hell bent on pushing boundaries. They were a really hard working touring band that were out on the road

Neil38:05 all the time, really super busy hard, didn't they. They're the run up to this record. They were, were totally burned out and, and, and, and just, just stopped.

Chris38:15 Yeah.

Neil38:15 They were just like, you know, we had a break. Yeah.

Chris38:17 From it.

Neil38:18 Yeah.

Chris38:18 Yeah. Collect themselves, then come back to it. But I think when it came, I think that it was almost like there were two sides to them. There was that. That, you know, absolute epitome of rock and roll live band, you know, rock stars and all that.

Neil38:30 Yeah.

Chris38:31 And then there's the studio version of the band, which is. They're constantly pushing the envelope. They're constantly trying new ideas that you. They're really embracing new technologies, recording techniques, you know, microphones. Unusual. Like the whole thing with Henley Grange and that drum kit.

Neil38:45 Yeah. Obviously it was the way the kit was recorded, wasn't it? So. So there was like, they were like a million microphones and they were. It was mic tight. It was miked far away. It was, it was. There were mics catching the reverb in different rooms and then. And then that was all kind of woven together to get the sound that they got from it.

Chris39:05 But the placement in the stairwell.

Neil39:07 Yeah. Of the kit itself. Yeah. The whole thing, just phenomenal, though. They, like, it's not like all of those things were pretty revolutionary.

Chris39:15 Yeah.

Neil39:16 And to do all. But to do all of them, not like just, oh, I know we're gonna put the kit in the stairwell. We're gonna do, you know, we. We're gonna use all these different mics to go and get all these different sounds. It was like, no, we're just gonna do all of it. And like, you know, you think, I don't know, like, many other bands would have done maybe one of those things and that would have been revolutionary.

Chris39:33 Yes. Yeah.

Neil39:34 But here, this is, this overflow of. Of creativity to. To some degree.

Chris39:39 But I think that comes with the technical advancements.

Neil39:42 Yeah.

Chris39:43 Because they, they were able to bounce multi tracks down. They were able to play with tape. They were able to, you know, do all that. But the, The. The crux of it appeared to be creativity.

Neil39:55 It's the competence, isn't it? Like, I think you just nailed it. There is this creative. There's this overflowing creativity throughout the whole of the band.

Chris40:05 Yeah.

Neil40:05 But this competence to go and execute where often you. That may, that may be where you're reliant on a producer or eng. Yeah, but I think here the band are capable of doing it. They, you know that within their, within themselves, they can, you know, bend and stretch things to do what they want. So it's not just as, as simple as you, you know, you can imagine. Many bands might have that creativity and then they're trying to describe to the engineer the sound that they want. Like, I've got this. I've got this vision And I want this sound. And the engineer's like, I don't really understand, you know, I don't know what you're telling me. Whereas here, that's in the same dude's head. So he's like, no, I know what I'm trying to. Trying to get.

Chris40:49 Yeah.

Neil40:50 So you know what I mean?

Chris40:52 And here's how you do it.

Neil40:53 Yeah. And then you, drum kits and your drum kids in the stairway, you've got, you know, 12 mics, you know, stretching down the road kind of thing, and. And till it. Till it gives you what you want.

Chris41:03 Yeah.

Neil41:03 And I think. And it's. It's the rarity of that, I think. I think that's incredibly. And you. I mean, a lot of bands think that they had it, I think, but not to the same level here. Not. Not to the same. That same competence, I think. Yeah. An ability to execute, I think, comes

Chris41:21 with a language, though, as well in that, you know, Jimmy Page, in particular always talks about Led Zeppelin as a project.

Neil41:28 Yeah.

Chris41:29 And he talks about, like, the music as an archive.

Neil41:31 Yeah.

Chris41:32 And he talks about, you know,

Neil41:36 the

Chris41:36 process of recording is construction. You know, like, the song craft is very. Is very engineered. It's very.

Neil41:42 Yeah, it's meticulous, isn't it?

Chris41:45 Yes, yes. That's the great. That's the right word for it, I think. And, you know, a lot of people were just like, oh, I just write the songs and play the songs.

Neil41:52 But it does.

Chris41:52 He's like, no, no, we're. We're excavating here.

Neil41:54 But it's got that fluid. It's got that fluidity to it where it feels. It's got a lovely feel and flow to it. So all of these songs got a lovely feel and flow to them. Them. And you wouldn't, like. Somebody told me that. That, you know, these were kind of almost jams to some degree. You'd be like, oh, okay. And. And. And I'm sure there is a massive amount of. Of jam in here to go and get the riffs and stuff. But then it's that meticulous, like, going over and over and over until it's where it was supposed to be, you know, to where it was. Where. Where it ended up. Yeah.

Chris42:29 And the other thing I'm thinking about is, like, there's that bit which Jimmy Page is. That's.

Neil42:33 He's a master of. Yeah.

Chris42:34 What he does.

Neil42:35 Yeah.

Chris42:35 But then. Then you think about, well, where do the other guys fit in?

Neil42:38 Yeah.

Chris42:38 You know, obviously, it feels a lot like Jimmy Page and John Bonham would Be the what? The first ones in the studio.

Neil42:45 The rhythm. Yeah.

Chris42:46 But actually, you know, and John. John Paul Jones was obviously a multi instrumental, as though he played Blaze. He played a lot of keyboard stuff, which I didn't know until we did the last one.

Neil42:56 The base here for me is just exquisite. I think it's easy to skip over the. The bass on. On. But it is for me. It's more of the high drums are just extraordinary. Yeah. But then. But one of the things I hadn't learned until we went and listened again for the show, I'd realized just how good the bass.

Chris43:14 Yeah.

Neil43:15 Oh, no, how good. But I guess how I turned. There are. There are. There are riffs in the bass. There are melodies in the bass line here that I don't think I'd ever heard before. They just. Exquisite. Really cool.

Chris43:28 Yeah, yeah. And then I always think about like, so what's Robert Plant doing? Yeah, you know, because he's obviously. He's like an absolute animal live, isn't he? Yeah, he's like. He is the. He is the. The ringmaster. You know, he's running the show. He's. That's his. His sort of arena and. And I just wonder whether he perhaps didn't get the same gratification out of the recording process as perhaps say.

Neil43:54 Yeah, yeah, that's. So Joe Elliott's interesting like that he. He talks about. About that. That he. He really loves being the frontman of Def Leppard and he does a lot of the writing as well. But actually like Phil Collin will do most of the writing. He'll do tons of the. The songwriting. And like you say. I think the same is. Is true here. I think the, the band, you know, are. They've all got their bit to play, all got their parts to play. You know, it's. It's. I don't know, it would like this. This one. This album particular. I mean, normally the albums are like a point in time.

Chris44:35 Yeah.

Neil44:36 You know, and it's kind of where everybody is. This one isn't this. This one is kind of. This spread out over kind of five years or so. Yeah. But the thing that is amazing, like if you took almost any other band and stretch them over five years, the. This. That wouldn't sound as cohesive as this does.

Chris44:53 Right.

Neil44:54 Like it. Yeah. The musical styles are like really broad across the album.

Chris45:01 Yeah. I remember listening going, well, that's like. That's a gossip on the beach. There's one that's like. Yeah, there's one that's like a massive, huge kind of like Blues Jam.

Neil45:14 No, it's Led Deppin.

Chris45:16 Yeah.

Neil45:17 Do you know what I mean? And like. Like, this is one of the things really hard to pin down for me. Like. Like. Like prong. Sound like prong. Because they play prong music and. And then. But. But. But it's not very broad, right. It's like, you know, if I think to myself sometimes I'll get in, I'll get to my desk and I'll think that I just want something massively industrial and riffy. And I grab prong and I put prong on. It doesn't matter which album I put on, it's gonna sound like prong. And I know it's prong because of that. Led Zeppelin isn't like that. Led Zeppelin is not the style of music that makes him sound like Led Zeppelin. It's the way the band plays.

Chris45:53 Yeah.

Neil45:53 Every style of music that makes you realize, like John Bonham's drums. I think you could hear John. But if John Bonham played for Slayer.

Chris45:59 Yeah.

Neil46:00 You'd be like, I just jump on him. But you can hear he's got that. He's got that style, inimitable style. It's one of the reasons, for me, that made Greta Van Fleet hard to cope with because they, like. I don't know how you haphazardly form a band that sounds exactly like Led Zeppelin.

Chris46:22 A particular branch of Led Zeppelin.

Neil46:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's got. And it. But it's. And for me, the thing was, like, the drumming and the vocals was like. So. Do you know what I mean? Like. Not copycat as the wrong word. No, I don't mean that.

Chris46:35 It was almost like a derivative of. Wasn't it?

Neil46:37 Yeah, it's so similar to it. It's a bit like Airborne and acdc.

Chris46:41 Yeah, yeah.

Neil46:42 You know, and they've got that. I don't know there. That similarity is. Is there. But I find it really, I don't know. Improbable. Right. Because. And I think because of the unique musicians that you've got in Led Zeppelin and. And. And the way that band came together and the way they write songs and everything about them made them just different from everybody. Like, you mentioned the rules.

Chris47:08 Right.

Neil47:08 They don't really follow. The way they. The way they wrote songs wasn't the same. You know, they weren't the first band to do a double album like this, but they. They seem to. This seemed to set them a benchmark.

Chris47:21 Yeah.

Neil47:21 For the use your illusions.

Chris47:24 Yeah.

Neil47:24 You know, the stuff that came. The stuff that Came after.

Chris47:28 I mean, the Wall, isn't it? Because it's all right looking at this now with the lens of history on it. But it's at the time, isn't it? And it's what, it's what it informed at the time.

Neil47:37 I mean, I wonder if the. I wonder if Roger Waters would have done the Wall and then. And you've got. Yeah, I mean, like I said, you use your illusion as well. Yeah, I, I've never heard Axel talk about Led Zeppelin as a influence. I'm sure it'd probably be, you know, we're too rock and roll to have influences. But, but, but I do wonder if like a lot of those big, Big kind of sprawling and melancholy maybe, you know, in those big kind of sprawling rock albums wouldn't have.

Chris48:03 Yeah.

Neil48:05 You know, because this sold incredibly well.

Chris48:08 I was thinking about like, you know, Queen kind of came out of the gate shortly around this time and then afterwards, didn't they?

Neil48:15 Yeah, yeah.

Chris48:16 And. And actually when you listen to early Queen. Yeah, it's not dis.

Neil48:21 It's.

Chris48:21 Yeah, you know, like the, the really early Pragia stuff, you know, isn't a million miles away.

Neil48:28 They were another band that was hard to pin down, weren't they? That was like. Yeah, utterly chaotic from it. Like, you can imagine, like, I can imagine the record label for Queen and Queen, like, you know, what you got this time when they turn up and they've got like, you know, like a drum and bass album. Do you know what I mean? You never know what, What Queen we're going to give you. I could imagine them just like bracing themselves, having some valley and just, oh, is it going to be like. You know what I mean? Is it going be like a mega rock album or is it going to be something else? And similarly. Not to the same degree, I don't think. I think.

Chris49:00 Well, it became. It was theatrical, wasn't it? And it was in many ways, but. But, you know, still great, you know, great songcraft and all that. But I was just really zooming in on that early period of Queen, before they became Queen Queen, before. Before they became the, you know, the thing. The monster they became.

Neil49:20 For me, a lot of. A lot of these. The debut albums for me are the ones that often mean the most.

Chris49:25 Yeah.

Neil49:26 You know, because that, that you. There's an honesty and an authenticity and I, I. There's a. I love reading biographies, especially musicians biographies, but one of the things I particularly enjoy is that that similarity across the board of, of artists who've had a successful debut. Yeah.

Chris49:48 Yeah.

Neil49:49 And then the. Oh, what do we do now?

Chris49:51 Yeah, yeah.

Neil49:51 You know, like that. That album didn't come from nowhere. That was an album that I've been writing Since I was 11, 12 years old, you know, and then it all came together perhaps in, you know, late teens or 20s or whatever. So there may be a decade's worth of experiences and songcraft and writing to go and pull that together. And then all of a sudden you're now a commodity and it's just like, right, you've got, you've got like 12 months.

Chris50:16 Yeah, yeah.

Neil50:17 I mean, going make, make that, make a record, make a follow up. Whatever will happen there, you need now need to be better.

Chris50:23 That.

Neil50:25 And I, I love that kind of, I don't know, like imagining what that was like because often the, the, you know, the, the follow on to a great tea and you just think how, like, how do you deal with that pressure? How do you. Do you cope with that? But I think it's interesting here though, because they like, they had so much money and power at this point. Led Zeppelin basically stuck two fingers up at the world and just kind of went, we'll do what we want and we'll do it when we want it. And then they just disappeared off into the. Disappeared Headley Grange pretty much and figured it out. It's not a recipe, I don't think, for great creativity, you know what I mean? It's not like no pressure. Dead relaxed.

Chris51:13 Yeah.

Neil51:14 Band all pretty much get on with each other, you know what I mean? It's like. And we've talked before about often these great albums come, come from conflict or pressure or some, you know, something. There's something driving the, the thing here and, and like there's none of that around. The band like this could have tanked.

Chris51:35 Yeah.

Neil51:35 And Led Zeppelin would have been absolutely fine. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. And I think the thing.

Chris51:42 Yeah, they had nothing to prove at this point.

Neil51:43 No, nothing to prove and nothing to gain, really. There was like, you know, they were already great. Everyone thought they were great. So there was like, you know, making another great album is just what's expected. So. So all that they can do here is fail. Right. They can't be. You know what I mean? It's like if you're the world champion at something, all you can do is be the world champion again. You can't. You know what I mean? It's like, like you just, you by, by, by kind of going and competing again. You're just inviting failure of not being able to do it again. And I Think a lot of it is down to Jimmy Page's drive.

Chris52:18 Yeah.

Neil52:19 To. But when you mentioned it's technical excellence of being able to push the M, it's like, how far can I push this? How, you know, what magic can I do in the studio? And that love of being able to do that stuff.

Chris52:32 He's very, he's very detail oriented when it comes to music, isn't he?

Neil52:35 He is, yes. You said it was a nerd earlier. It was just such a good.

Chris52:41 In an affectionate way, like.

Neil52:42 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris52:43 Quite a negative conversation. I didn't mean it at all negatively,

Neil52:45 but he, he, but he does. He comes across as being like this kind of. You can imagine him like properly nerding out in the dark in the studio. No one there.

Chris52:53 Yeah.

Neil52:54 You know, obsessing over some minutiae, you know, just. And not necessarily from a, you know, like, you know, like a. An Axl Rose kind of, you know, diva style, but just. I want to know how this works.

Chris53:08 Yeah.

Neil53:09 You know, you can imagine him going like down a complete rabbit hole of an instrument or recording technique and then just kind of going, oh, I'm not going to do that, and then go to the next one. You know, I could just imagine him just like obsessing over the detail in the studio and I don't know, he's. Yeah, he's a. Well, I think that. I mean, imagine him in today's world, but I'd be obsessed with plug ins. Wouldn't he have like, you know, all of the, all of the things going. But yeah, I. It's. It's funny, like, back. Back then, this would have all been physical, wouldn't it? Everything that he was doing was, was physical and mixed down. It was on tape. It was, you know, you only had four tracks, so you'd have had to mix down and get more tracks and then like, all of these things would have been like physical switches and knobs and cables that were. Were looped together. Like a mad scientist almost. Yeah, very, very, very cool time, I think. I mean, not that he was the only one that there was obviously a lot of Floyd were. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they were.

Chris54:11 But I think they were very much like in that Abbey Road world when they. There was like.

Neil54:16 Yep.

Chris54:16 Like the nerds and the geeks were kind of around them.

Neil54:19 Yeah.

Chris54:19 Oh, and they did their thing and then, and then. And then that was captured.

Neil54:22 Yeah, that is very true. They. They were. I think they were. They. Yeah. Like you say they would. They would experiment, tell the engineers what they wanted and Then.

Chris54:30 And then they would collaborate to get

Neil54:32 there, figure it out. Yeah, but. Yeah, I think you're right. I think Jimmy was doing this. It was on his terms, wasn't it? Yeah, he was doing. And this was his. His studio, wasn't he? So he did. He had his own studio as well at this point. And he had his own four tracks and stuff. We had a four track at school. Ye was. I'm sure it wasn't quite the same as this, but I remember it had rubber wheels that you. That you scrolled around and no one knew what any of them did. You know, it had like. Yeah, each track had like four or five of these rubber buttons.

Chris55:04 Yeah.

Neil55:04 And then. And I remember we would. And I remember there was one guy there called Neil Wy and he. He would, he would just come in and like, just like frown at us all and move them all back to the middle. There you go. That's what we did. I started annotating my own archive listing everything that went back to like the very earliest all. It was all analog tape that I was doing and it went back to like the early little sort of three and a quarter inch reels that were done at home when I did my parents. And it goes to a 5 inch reel and hit home demos. And I was going all the way through and it got through all the material that I had. I was logging it and collating it and making notes all through the Yardbirds. And then of course it gets to Led Zeppelin and I'd started to do some of that. But I must say that I'd had an idea that was along the lines of the project that we're all now familiar with the re releases. But somehow these sort of gems that were sitting around could come out. I had another little, you know, another plan. But this, this was far more ambitious and much lengthier and far more relevant I think to the. To the whole picture of what was needed to be sort of presented. An audible picture of what went on in the studio. When it comes to the Led Zeppelin aspect of it, it was hundreds of hours, literally hundreds of hours of listening to Take. Because you've got to listen to it in real time. And then you, you know, say you've selected a title and you're going listening to everything you've got around that title and there's copious notes being made and it's a lengthy project. But I knew it was worth. Sam. Then as it was. Then again it will be. Though the course may change sometimes Rivers always reach the sea. Blind skies of Fortune each have separate way on the wings of maybe down he burns some prey Kind of makes me feel Sometime didn't have to go but as the eagle leaves the nest Got so far to go. Changes fill my time Baby, that's all right with me in the midst of I think of you and how it used to be. Ram. Do you ever really need somebody? I really need them by did you ever really want somebody?

Chris59:55 Do you ever Remember.

Neil1:00:23 Sam. Machine Tasting love along the way See a feather spring Kind of makes you feel Sometime can help we are eagles all wonder the masters in our soul. Fixing in my dreams with great surprise to me Never thought I'd see your face the way it used to be Our darling

Chris1:01:38 Our darling.

Neil1:01:43 Sam. It was possible. It was possible, quite probable, that we arrive at a double album. But you couldn't just say, we're doing a double album. Let's just see how it all goes. But the way that the. The material was sort of pouring out and shaping up, it was clear that it was going to be.

Chris1:02:55 There are obviously all these remasters coming and, you know, companion disc, companion prod, like projects that, you know, were coming out with the original records and that's all Jimmy Page just getting lost in all the archives.

Neil1:03:11 Yeah.

Chris1:03:12 And just fight, you know, going back to what we.

Neil1:03:14 Finding more stuff.

Chris1:03:15 Yeah, yeah. And that. But then almost using that to tell the story of the development of the

Neil1:03:19 songs and that sort of thing.

Chris1:03:21 Ideas. And I think that's really good.

Neil1:03:23 Well, at the kind of the early demos and instrumentals and things, they just pulled through. Yeah. I think. But again, it's. To your point. He's, I think, think he loves it. Yeah. It's a recording nerd. Loves being in there. Loves doing that.

Chris1:03:37 Yeah. Because we. We went into the studio a few weeks ago with a guy called Mark Gardner, who was from Ride.

Neil1:03:45 Yeah.

Chris1:03:46 And he.

Neil1:03:46 I remember saying.

Chris1:03:47 Yeah, he loves it. Like, you can tell, like. Like he's. He's that in, you know, just. He's like. He's got some really good gear, like, really, like, you know, the name stuff, you know.

Neil1:03:57 Yeah.

Chris1:03:58 But it's. But it's not the plug in. It's the real boxes with the real twiddly knobs.

Neil1:04:01 The real twiddly knobs. There's something about twiddling a real.

Chris1:04:04 Yeah, I think. Yeah. And he. And. But you can sort of tell that, you know, he. He absolutely loves it. He's invested a huge amount of. Of. Of himself.

Neil1:04:14 Yeah.

Chris1:04:14 And finances, but also his own ability, you know.

Neil1:04:17 Yeah. It was time as well.

Chris1:04:19 And, you know, with a beautiful desk and stuff. And that sort of got me thinking that, you know, there is something in it. There is something in that. Getting lost in the tapes, getting lost in the desk.

Neil1:04:29 But.

Chris1:04:29 But having something physical around you. Because I've always been in as. You know, like in the box.

Neil1:04:33 Yeah.

Chris1:04:34 Everything. Everything's in the computer and.

Neil1:04:35 Yeah, yeah.

Chris1:04:36 All that sort of stuff for me.

Neil1:04:37 But that's what you. You. You. You're millennial. So you.

Chris1:04:40 Yeah, I grew up with that. You grew up with that stuff?

Neil1:04:43 Yeah. You were just. Just, I guess, ahead of the analog.

Chris1:04:48 Yeah. World.

Neil1:04:49 Right.

Chris1:04:50 Yeah. But. But, you know, know, having. And I think the wiring had. Drive me mad and having to keep.

Neil1:04:57 But.

Chris1:04:57 But I could see the value in having, you know, a few.

Neil1:05:01 Yeah.

Chris1:05:01 Tried and tested. Because the problem you get with recording when you do this sort of stuff, like with what. You know, what. What you do with Pro Tools or whatever, is you get options, fatigue. So you don't ever get anything done.

Neil1:05:14 Yeah.

Chris1:05:15 Because you're getting so lost in finding

Neil1:05:17 you've not got one compressor. You've got 10 compressors and you call it. Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah.

Chris1:05:21 But one thing that I've. I've sort of got quite good at now is I have a go to.

Neil1:05:28 Yeah.

Chris1:05:28 Mic setting. I have a go to like, start point, if you like. Yeah. Like bass amp, I like. I love to use when I'm recording. Yeah. Rich or whatever. And there's like a guitar neve thing that I love. You know, I love that. And it's. And it's just interesting that once you've done gone through the options, but you have to spend hours and hours doing it.

Neil1:05:48 Yeah.

Chris1:05:48 That actually you find the thing that you like. Like. And I think that's the point I'm getting at with Jimmy. With Jimmy Page.

Neil1:05:53 Yeah.

Chris1:05:54 Is that he's obviously spent all of those hours, like tens and hundreds of hours. Yeah. Pouring through, finding to just find the moment, find the bit there is to be pulled out.

Neil1:06:03 It's funny when we've. We've talked about, you know, albums being a. A point in time. It's. It's. It's your. You know, to Jimmy Page's world, it's an archive. It's a. You're. You're committing that point in time to. To tape. Right. You're recording it like a time caps. Yeah. And then. And then if we look back at your. Some of. Some of the statements you've made over the years where it's like your mood, what you had for Breakfast. How you're feeling, that comes out in the way you play, in the way you, where you do things. And then I know, I also, I think that's down to the, the producer and engineers as well. They're having a good mood. Everybody's, you know, not necessarily a good mood, but the mood and the, you know, the, the feeling that everybody's kind of got. It's just blokes in a room and it's funny, it's that they're is there is something different about interacting tactically with something than, than, than using a computer screen. You know, if I compare, if I get in, if I get in our electric car, it's all screens. There's no physical buttons anywhere. And I feel really different than when I get in my old car and I feel like I'm in the Millennium Falcon and I've got switches, real switch, and I go and click thing. I click things. I don't need to. I go click, I click thing. I switch them off and I switch them back on again. Because I like how it makes me feel when a physical switch makes a click and it's not. Oh yeah, it's nice.

Chris1:07:26 Yeah.

Neil1:07:27 And I'm in a better mood. I'm like, this has made me in a better mood. And I swear that I'm not always going to know that the analog audio gear was for. I spent you a lot of years as a teenager swearing at analog audio gear. It's not always doing what you want, but there is definitely something about that, you know, do I mean like that connecting physically connecting with the thing? I, I don't know. I, there is, there's, I, like, I, I, I would not be surprised if we, we go back temper that. I, I don't think that we'll see that for live shows, you know, like the Kemper and the. Did you get your replacers with the quad? Have you?

Chris1:08:07 Yeah, well, the cortex now. Yeah. Yeah.

Neil1:08:09 And so I, I, I don't think they're going anywhere because they sound so good live. And sound engineers don't have to, you know, know faff about. I think they're awesome. But I do think in like a studio.

Chris1:08:21 Yeah.

Neil1:08:21 Having stuff you can poke at and smell and it gets hot and I don't know, for me there's just, I, I think there'll be a bit of a resurgence of that. Although having said that, I did read today that the kids of today don't, don't have like speakers anymore.

Chris1:08:40 No, they just do it on their phone.

Neil1:08:42 Yeah. Everything's done on your phone.

Chris1:08:44 Yeah.

Neil1:08:44 Or at most, yeah, you have a Bluetooth speaker. And that made me really sad. A little bit inside of me was just like, what?

Chris1:08:53 Yeah.

Neil1:08:53 And. And it's massive. It's not just a little. It's not like 60 of like gen. Gen Z do it. All of them do it.

Chris1:09:01 Yeah.

Neil1:09:01 Like none of them own two speakers. Well, they might have two Bluetooth speakers, one in each room, but they don't have. And, and everybody's, you know, stereo is dead. Yeah. They might have a Sonos speaker or something. And it's. And I was just like, oh God, God, my little heart's dying a little bit here. Not the Sonos is bad, but typically it's one speaker and it's.

Chris1:09:21 Yeah.

Neil1:09:21 You know. Yeah, just stop it. Go and buy. Do you know what you should do?

Chris1:09:27 Yeah.

Neil1:09:27 Just take your fancy Bluetooths.

Chris1:09:29 Yeah.

Neil1:09:30 Literally pick it up and put it in the bin and then go and find a second hand.

Chris1:09:35 Yeah.

Neil1:09:35 Audio shop and go in and buy like an old class A trio.

Chris1:09:40 Yeah.

Neil1:09:41 And some old leak speakers. Just take the moment. It will sound awful, but you'll like it. And it will smell. Smell it.

Chris1:09:49 It's not real.

Neil1:09:51 It just smells high smell. I love that kind of hot smell when you get like. It's nice and, and. Yeah. And every, all of the, all of the. Like you, you need to go back far enough, I think where you didn't have capacitative buttons.

Chris1:10:05 Yeah.

Neil1:10:06 Where you, if you press it and it doesn't clunk.

Chris1:10:09 Yeah.

Neil1:10:10 It's rubbish.

Chris1:10:10 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree with that. I like a good clunk.

Neil1:10:13 You got clunk and then you have a little spray of switch cleaner.

Chris1:10:16 Yeah.

Neil1:10:17 And you just waz it in. It's brilliant.

Chris1:10:19 Is that the technical language?

Neil1:10:21 Was it, was it, was it in Jimmy Page W A Z.

Chris1:10:27 Is it two Z or one?

Neil1:10:28 I don't know. You could use either.

Chris1:10:31 It depends on how hard.

Neil1:10:32 I bet it's like if it's.

Chris1:10:33 If it's the three Z's is like super hard.

Neil1:10:35 The British spelling is wa. Z. Yeah. And Americans, two zeds. Because they, they love a zed, don't they?

Chris1:10:42 Yeah.

Neil1:10:42 For our American listeners, we're pleased to give you another zed. Z.

Chris1:10:46 Z.

Neil1:10:46 Z.

Chris1:10:47 Two Z's.

Neil1:10:48 Two Z's. We have, there's a couple of companies that we, we do work with and they're American companies and, and their names are pronounced with the Z and I can't do it. I have to say zed.

Chris1:10:58 Yeah.

Neil1:10:59 And they, they're quite, they say no, no, no, no, you're saying it wrong. It's Z. And I go, okay, I'll do Z. And then the very next day, that's it. It's back to Z.

Chris1:11:06 Back to Z.

Neil1:11:07 And, and, and I will point you back to Paul. But Fiction.

Chris1:11:10 Yeah.

Neil1:11:10 Cuz Zed's dead, baby. Love. Pulp Fiction.

Chris1:11:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Neil1:11:15 That's bonkers. Absolutely. Don't make movies like that anymore. No, they don't like nonsense like what is going on? Out of order.

Chris1:11:21 Yeah.

Neil1:11:21 And it's like. What? Why is it out of order? Yeah, well, and, and, and, and, and you can buy it in order. Somebody's chopped it up and put it in order.

Chris1:11:29 Have they? Yeah.

Neil1:11:31 Why would you do that? Why would you do that? It's better. But back then. Yeah, I think it was better back then. Things smelled better.

Chris1:11:39 Yeah, things were in the right order. The right wrong order.

Neil1:11:44 Exactly.

Chris1:11:45 Yeah.

Neil1:11:45 The right wrong order. I like. Yeah.

Chris1:11:50 Shall we do some facts?

Neil1:11:52 Shall I put my glasses on?

Chris1:11:53 Yeah. Because we are at 70 minutes.

Neil1:11:56 Well, it was only in keeping with the longest hour. It's not the longest album.

Chris1:12:00 Last week was mental. We did. Did have like seven longest ever.

Neil1:12:04 Mellow. Yeah. This is not the longest album we've recovered, but it is quite a long album. So this is physical graffiti. I can't spell it is the first fact.

Chris1:12:12 Graffiti is a hard word to spell.

Neil1:12:14 Two T's. It's not got two T's, it's got one T. I always spell it with two T's.

Chris1:12:17 So what is it? Two F's.

Neil1:12:19 It's two F's. Two T's.

Chris1:12:21 It's got two.

Neil1:12:22 Sorry, Two F's, one T. Two F's, one T. And I can't do that. I always put two T's. T. Graffiti.

Chris1:12:28 Graffiti.

Neil1:12:29 It feels like it should have two T's, but it's not. It's only got. Got one. That's not really a fact, but it is a fact. Release 24 February 1975 on Swansong Records. Although it wasn't really released on Swanson Records, it was released by Atlantic. Swansong Records was their vanity label so they could do what they wanted set up just for this. And they spent the year, the entire year prior to this with their management team unpicking their legal responsibilities to Atlantic and then re released it on Atlantic anyway.

Chris1:12:59 Yeah.

Neil1:12:59 Yeah. Produced by Jimmy Peck Page at Headley Grange in Hampshire with Ronnie Lane's mobile studio, Olympic Studios in London, Island Studios in London. And then it was. I don't think it was mixed. I think it was mastered at Electric Lady Studios.

Chris1:13:14 Yeah.

Neil1:13:14 Yeah. My notes here are vague. How many tracks was it?

Chris1:13:20 I don't know. 15.

Neil1:13:21 15, 15, which is too many. It's 82 minutes long.

Chris1:13:26 Yeah.

Neil1:13:27 And I think, like I struggle with this. I like the phone. First five tracks. I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm with it. I'm in. It's great. I think if it had been another two tracks, I'd have loved this.

Chris1:13:37 Yeah.

Neil1:13:37 And it's just. Then it just goes off into this void.

Chris1:13:40 Yeah.

Neil1:13:41 And I'm like, oh God, I'm lost now. And I'm really, I get absolutely lost with this. With this record. Peaked at number one on the UK albums.

Chris1:13:50 See, it's not the kind of album you expect to do that, is it?

Neil1:13:53 Well, not with no singles and no PR and no. Like they did. They, they didn't really like the media very much. So. Although Jimmy Page is extremely eloquent. Really, really good.

Chris1:14:04 Yeah.

Neil1:14:05 He didn't like go on the normal. Do the normal interviews and stuff, which I think is interesting. It was number one in Australia and Canada and top five across most of Western Europe and Japan. It's been 16 times ranked platinum in the and in the RIAA USA. Counted as double album platinum, multi platin. Canada, Australia, most European countries. Estimated sales roughly 8 million in the US alone, 16 million worldwide for an album that's seven hours long. Interestingly, Key Singles was Trampled Underfoot and Houses of the Holy only released in the US because the band famously would not allow singles released in the uk, which I think is interesting. Another interesting thing from this is they, they were five studio records in the four and a half years before he had Led Zeppelin. Two, three. There Untitled fourth album that everyone calls Led Zeppelin four and then Houses of the Holy. This album charted so hard that it brought the other albums back into the charts, which is almost unheard of. It brought the entire discography a couple of times with Led Zeppelin, the entire discography came back into the charts at the same time.

Chris1:15:28 I think if I remember rightly, I've got a feeling that I don't even think it was this album that came back. But you know when they use the cashmere riff on Godzilla?

Neil1:15:37 Oh, yeah. Who did that? Was that Puff Daddy?

Chris1:15:39 Yeah. Is that kind of thing.

Neil1:15:40 Wasn't it Sean Coombs? I don't know. Do we call him Sha or Puff? Sha. Sha or Daddy?

Chris1:15:48 Yeah, the. Yeah, I'm sure that brought. That brought it all back as well. There's like a huge Led Zeppelin resurgence from there as well. There's been a few, really. A few waves of it.

Neil1:15:56 Yeah. It's also in the movie Almost Famous.

Chris1:16:01 What. What I watched, I've watched it all the way through.

Neil1:16:05 I watched it this week and Lizzie got really grumpy because like I couldn't sleep. One of the cats would be in a. And anyway, he annoyed me like yowling around the house and stuff at 11 o'. Clock. So I, I, I got my tablet and just sat down in, in bed and put my headphones on and started to watch Almost Famous and then just watched it all the way through and it was just brilliant. Really, really cool about rock and roll. About like Black Sabbath are in. The music is, is awesome as it goes.

Chris1:16:37 It's very.

Neil1:16:38 Of this era.

Chris1:16:39 Yeah.

Neil1:16:41 Just, just a cool, It's a cool movie. Almost pointless.

Chris1:16:47 Yeah.

Neil1:16:47 Do you know the stories of these people? It doesn't, it's not landing like some kind of big message at you.

Chris1:16:52 Yeah.

Neil1:16:53 It's just that story of this band that were becoming popular and the people that went out on tour with them and a journalist that went on tour with them and the groupies that were around them and yeah, just how that meanders through the, through the world. And it was, it's just, just very, very cool movie. But it's got, it's got Led Zeppelin in it, which is interesting. I thought that they were very tight about who could use their music, but.

Chris1:17:20 Yeah, yeah, no, there's been a few things about that they weren't.

Neil1:17:23 Cashmere has certainly been used.

Chris1:17:25 Yeah.

Neil1:17:26 A lot.

Chris1:17:27 But I think there was just. Yeah, there was certain songs they let out the bag, I think, and then others that they didn't want used on it.

Neil1:17:32 You know, I wondered if some of this, I, I and I. I don't think this is the case, but I wondered if there's some of this was to do with Atlantic versus So the stuff that was recorded on their own label they kept artistic control over. But Kashmir was recorded on. On that and they still used it.

Chris1:17:49 Yeah.

Neil1:17:51 Right. More facts. The airplane heard at the start of Black Country Woman was real. The track was being recorded where? Outdoors in the garden of Mick Jagger's country house Star Groves In 1972, when a plane flew over. Engineer Eddie Kramer, you can hear him asking Plant if he wants to start again. And Plant exact words on the tape would now leave it. And then it was also kept in the mix. A whole lot was kept. John Paul Jones almost left the band before these sessions started in late 73. Told Peter Grant he was thinking of Accepting a job as a choir master at Winchester Cathedral. That's rock and roll. Grant took the request seriously, told the others Jones was simply ill and gave him a few weeks to think it over.

Chris1:18:39 Yeah.

Neil1:18:40 And he came back.

Chris1:18:40 Yeah.

Neil1:18:42 The album's cover. This is my. Did not know until I did the search for this. The album's building. You know the COVID of the. Of the building? Yeah, yeah. Do you know what's special about it?

Chris1:18:52 No.

Neil1:18:53 The. The actual building is six stories and they removed the top floor in the basement so it would fit on a square record sleeve. And the buildings in 96 and 98, St Mark's Place in New York's East Village still standing and remain one of the most photographed addresses in Manhattan. Manhattan. But they're quite clearly the wrong shape. So Boogie With Stew is partly credited to Mrs. Valens.

Chris1:19:23 Ah, now what's this again? Because it was. There was some rights thing, wasn't there?

Neil1:19:27 Yeah. Meaning Conception Valens, Valenzuela, the mother of Richie Valens. The credit was an attempt by the band to get royalties to her since the melody borrows from Richie Cheese. Oh, my head. The Valens estate sued anyway and the case was settled out of court. The album's release made Led Zeppelin the first band to have all six of their existing studio albums on the Billboard 200 in the same week in March 1975. Bron y ur all my Welsh friends will be throwing things at from the Valley, so my old Mac Loop buddies will be like, oh, you dickhead. The two minute solo guitar piece on side three was actually recorded in July 1970 during sessions for Led Zeppelin 3. It sat unused for almost five years before being included here on Physical Graffiti. The cottage of the same name in Gwynedd, Wales, has no electricity to this day. The song Houses of the Holy on side one A Physical Graffiti was recorded for the Houses of the Holy holy album in 1972. It was cut at the very last minute. Jimmy Page felt it sat oddly with the rest of that record's material. It's the only Zeppelin song to share its title with an entirely different album. I think that's fascinating. Like two thirds of this album doesn't sound like it fits on this album. And he's fine with it. It's. I think it's bizarre that he would have made that.

Chris1:20:56 Yeah.

Neil1:20:57 Especially with such an amazing song. In My Time of dying is 11 minutes, 4 seconds. It's the longest studio track Led Zeppelin have ever released. At the end of that you can hear John Bonham coughing and joking. Cough. Cough. That's got to be the one, hasn't it? And that was kept in again, Jimmy Page's request.

Chris1:21:17 I like that. I like little studio moments like that staying on record.

Neil1:21:20 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rolling Stones do a lot of that as well. The early stuff that. I like it when you can hear that kind of.

Chris1:21:25 Yeah.

Neil1:21:26 Stuff. Studio stuff. Peter Corriston sleeve design. So he was the guy that designed the. The album's artwork won the 1976 Grammy for best Album Package. Coriston went on to design some girls Emotional Rescue and tattoo you for Rolling Stones. The trampled underfoot riff was directly inspired by Stevie Wonder superstition.

Chris1:21:51 Now Clavin over thing.

Neil1:21:52 Yeah. As soon as I read that, I was like, it totally does.

Chris1:21:55 Yeah, yeah.

Neil1:21:57 Which had been a US number one in January 1973. John Paul Jones plays the same honor D6 clavinet that wonder used in the original. The dad Gad tuning that Page uses on Kashmir is the same alternate tuning he used on Black Mountain side on the first album. He picked it up in the mid-60s from Davey Graham, a British folk guitarist who had used it to play Moroccan and Indian melodies.

Chris1:22:25 That's really interesting.

Neil1:22:25 I wonder if that's kind of what gives it some of this.

Chris1:22:27 It is as well. But also dad Gad is now used quite a lot in folk music.

Neil1:22:31 Yeah.

Chris1:22:32 Quite open, you know, open tunings and dad Gad and stuff.

Neil1:22:35 Frank Turner is a big fan of the dad Gad.

Chris1:22:37 Yeah.

Neil1:22:38 Despite being released on Zeppelin's own Swantong label, the album was distributed in the US and most of the world by Atlantic, the band's previous label. The Swan Song imprint was a vanity label rather than a fully independent operation. And that's it for facts.

Chris1:22:54 Good fact.

Neil1:22:54 Facts.

Chris1:22:55 Good facts. Yeah, Very good.

Neil1:22:57 Shall we be Beggar's Banquet next?

Chris1:23:01 Is that what we're doing?

Neil1:23:02 I don't know. I think we should. We can't knock him. Can we not. We. We got to do that next, haven't we?

Chris1:23:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Neil1:23:07 While we're in this era.

Chris1:23:09 Yeah. Well, we'll play a song and you

Neil1:23:11 say error or era.

Chris1:23:12 Era.

Neil1:23:13 Era.

Chris1:23:13 You say error.

Neil1:23:14 No, that's like Z and Z. Some of my American friends say error.

Chris1:23:18 I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I do like their friends, mate. Honestly.

Neil1:23:26 I like American English for the most part. Like, they. They like, simplified the. The. The language when, you know the history behind it.

Chris1:23:35 Aluminum.

Neil1:23:37 The history behind the American language. So obviously we gave them that, right? So we. So here's the American language, right? Is the English language you can use. Can have it. Well, I think we. I don't know what we did. Didn't we invade whatever we did? Right.

Chris1:23:51 Yeah yeah. I know we properly like here's some.

Neil1:23:54 Is some English in that. And. And they said they used it when the colon. When the country was being Americanized. Right. So so kind of in the independence. You know the dictionary, the Maram. We have the English Oxford Dictionary.

Chris1:24:10 Yeah.

Neil1:24:10 Which is better.

Chris1:24:11 Yeah.

Neil1:24:12 They've got the Miriam Webster.

Chris1:24:14 That's an American one.

Neil1:24:14 Is it now? Right. And I always get these mixed up unless I've. Unless I've kind of prepared this. This is part of a talk that I used to give about language and. And stuff. But I think it was Webster anyway. One of them was tasked to simplify the language. So basically went through. And all of the stupid words that we have that are spelled totally differently.

Chris1:24:38 Yeah.

Neil1:24:38 From how they sound. They were like well we'll just change that. And that's what happened. And then we got invaded by the French and we. They put use in.

Chris1:24:47 Yeah.

Neil1:24:48 Our language. And then. But that's when the zeds came in and then we got. So they. They got their. Their. Their language got simpler and the S's turned into zeds and we got. We. We got Frenchified and use added into ours because we got. We got absolutely royally boogered by the French. So they came and did our language and then. And, and that's what. What happened. That's why they. A little bit bit different.

Chris1:25:09 Is that what it is?

Neil1:25:10 Yeah. So that. But it. But that. But for the most part American English is simpler and clearer and better than. Than our language.

Chris1:25:19 Because it's not right though, is it?

Neil1:25:21 We've still got the history.

Chris1:25:22 Yeah. No, I think it's. No, it's obviously better and simpler and

Neil1:25:26 more clearer in that.

Chris1:25:27 Clearer. But it's not right.

Neil1:25:28 They I listened to. This is going to go off piece a little bit. I listened to someone talking.

Chris1:25:34 You what though? Haven't we done well tonight?

Neil1:25:36 I think so.

Chris1:25:36 With off peace. We even started on task.

Neil1:25:39 On task. We didn't announce ourselves. We're Riffology.

Chris1:25:43 I'm Chris.

Neil1:25:45 An hour and a half. I'm near about an hour and a half into the podcast. You've done really well to get here. So I was. I was reading this week about AI models. Like they. If. If. So the way AI models talk to each other is typically in English, not American English. Yeah. It would mostly be American. So they're trained on the Internet. So. So. So you think about the Internet is Mostly American English.

Chris1:26:11 Yeah.

Neil1:26:12 That's what they get trained on the zeds. Yeah. And anyway, this. One of the AI engineers is saying that there is this tiny next step where the models will start to talk to each other in. In a more efficient language.

Chris1:26:33 Yeah.

Neil1:26:34 You know, where it won't. They won't have to use English.

Chris1:26:37 Yeah. Be bleeps, bleeps and bloops.

Neil1:26:40 Yeah.

Chris1:26:40 Although you need to. Basically.

Neil1:26:42 I like R2D2. Yeah. Got a T shirt with R2D2 on. But that gets interesting for me. Do you know what gets interesting? So I'll tell you what gets interesting. It gets interesting because right now I use AI models all day to build stuff. Right. They're. They're. They're busy whizzing code out and doing all the bits and pieces. Is now I'm a. I'm a human, or rather aging human, but I'm a human and I can understand all this. I can done all the code.

Chris1:27:08 Yeah.

Neil1:27:09 And I can even understand the thought process that the AI model's going through.

Chris1:27:14 Yeah. Yeah.

Neil1:27:14 Once it starts using its own language.

Chris1:27:16 Yeah.

Neil1:27:17 I can't understand what it's saying anymore.

Chris1:27:19 Yeah.

Neil1:27:19 And the AI engineer was basically saying, look, that. That will be the. What, one of the next steps where the models will start to talk to each other using a completely different, Different.

Chris1:27:26 Yeah.

Neil1:27:27 Language.

Chris1:27:27 Yeah.

Neil1:27:28 And then also all of the programming languages that we use to build stuff with.

Chris1:27:32 Yeah.

Neil1:27:33 Without fail, were all written for humans. Like, you know, even the newest language like Rust and stuff like this. They're all.

Chris1:27:38 Yeah.

Neil1:27:39 Contextual human languages.

Chris1:27:41 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Neil1:27:42 They would.

Chris1:27:43 They don't need that.

Neil1:27:44 Why would. Why would. Why would these AI models do that? Why not have a AI specific model. AI specific language that it was there. And once that happens, you.

Chris1:27:54 That way it goes Skynet.

Neil1:27:56 Well, once I've got that T shirt as well, once that happens. And I've got one that says, sorry, Dave, I can't do that. But then, but then, yeah, once that happen, once it happens, we would. We do.

Chris1:28:10 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no point.

Neil1:28:12 I'll tell you what we do. We go into a recording studio and we click big buttons. AI can't click buttons. It can't sniff an amp. A story about my friend. I'm going to go. My friend Russell.

Chris1:28:27 Amp sniffer.

Neil1:28:28 Oh, God.

Chris1:28:29 This just.

Neil1:28:30 It's just. Just making me think about this is making me laugh. So. So Rustle had these. He. He had these amazing monoblocks, these Krell monoblock amps. Absolutely gorgeous things, proper things. Of engineering beauty. Like, like 25 kilos each. And I remember in Bible they were all used. He bought one from one secondhand shop and then like couldn't afford it and then waited and bought the other one Anyway. So he had these two, two amps and you know this stereo setup was awesome. And his mom was mad cat lady. She had like 13 or 14 cats at one stage in the winter going around to his house and was sitting in his bedroom listening to Brian Adam's Reckless. And then one of his mom's cats came in and. And urinated into the amp vent cuz it was nice and warm. And then, and then he was like shing the cat out and his mom came in. You can't tell him off because you've got a warm. Like this, got a warm draft and he likes it on his undercarriage kind of thing. And then we had to take this amp apart and it was just full of cat. Cat way at the bottom. Like rusty cat was honestly. But these things, you know, these things were beautiful. They were like absolutely beautiful things. Big like big heat sinks and gorgeous things and it was. I remember feeling really sad. Yeah. AI can't do that. No, I ain't going to do that. No, no. Right.

Chris1:30:09 Should put tune on and then say the album we do next week which is already Zed Banks Banquet.

Neil1:30:14 Nailed it. And if you feel that you can go on. And your wheel. Sinking low. Just in me and you can go wrong. In the light. You will find the road. You will find the road. Did you ever believe that I could leave you standing on the cold? Hey, yeah. Fading I know how it feels. Cause I have slipped through to the very depths of my soul. Yeah. Oh oh baby I just want to show you what a clear view the kiss from every bend in the road. Now listen. Oh whoa. As I was believe it will be for you too. As you would for me. I will show your love. Let me share your love. In the night you will find the road. Hey. I hope the winds of change may blow around you. But that will always be so. Whoa whoa whoa whoa. When love is faint it can defile you with you are never alone. I will share your love. I will share your love. Baby, let me. In the light.

Chris1:35:17 Everybody needs a life. Baby.

Neil1:35:39 Sam. Light. Sam.

Chris1:37:08 That's my favorite one. That one.

Neil1:37:10 Is it?

Chris1:37:10 Yeah. Into the Light. Yeah. Favorite one on that record.

Neil1:37:12 What is that? The. It's got. It sounds Moroccany. So it's got that kind of.

Chris1:37:17 Yeah, yeah. The droney stuff at the start.

Neil1:37:19 Yeah. What's it What. What is that instrument?

Chris1:37:22 It's a synth.

Neil1:37:22 Is it?

Chris1:37:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they were using synths. But. But the. But like what they're trying to get is like a very folky kind of drone with a top line.

Neil1:37:32 Do you know? I think. I think it's the folk influence here that I think I hadn't. It's been a long time since I've listened to this album all the way through and it was. It's. I hadn't remembered that. That kind of folky.

Chris1:37:47 But that comes in across all their records.

Neil1:37:49 I remember the bluesy aspect to it.

Chris1:37:51 But. But it was the folk where they went afterwards. You know, with Jimmy Page and Robert Plan doing their own sort of thing and teaming back up and doing a couple of bits. They were always really folky sounding things. Yes. Right. That's it then. Beggars Banquet.

Neil1:38:07 I like Beggars Banquet. It's shorter. No, I do. I like. Do you know one of the things I like about the Rolling Stones. They started as a covers band.

Chris1:38:17 Yeah. Yeah.

Neil1:38:18 And they couldn't play.

Chris1:38:19 Yeah.

Neil1:38:19 And then they learned how to do covers and then. And then use those. Fell into WR and I don't know. I like. I like the kind of almost haphazard. I don't know. I like the fact they're still recording.

Chris1:38:34 I like.

Neil1:38:35 There's something that's super cool about the Stones.

Chris1:38:37 Yeah.

Neil1:38:38 Yeah. Yeah. I don't like the Beatles.

Chris1:38:40 No.

Neil1:38:40 That's really weird, isn't it? It's probably going to get everyone screaming at me. But I love the Stones.

Chris1:38:46 Yeah.

Neil1:38:46 I like quite a lot of music around this time.

Chris1:38:48 Yeah. Yeah. I don't ever think I've had a proper listen to the Stones.

Neil1:38:52 You're not?

Chris1:38:53 No.

Neil1:38:54 I think people are kind of eye. Either I listen to.

Chris1:38:56 Listen to the songs.

Neil1:38:57 Yeah.

Chris1:38:58 The obvious ones do.

Neil1:38:59 I think people are either Beatlesy or Stones.

Chris1:39:01 Yeah. Yeah.

Neil1:39:02 And like Beatles to me are kind of that. The pop melodies.

Chris1:39:07 Yeah.

Neil1:39:07 That there's just. It's all. It's very singy. It's very kind of. Whereas the Rolling Stones is a little bit more.

Chris1:39:13 Yeah.

Neil1:39:14 Like darker. It's a little bit rock and roll. Yeah.

Chris1:39:16 The Beach. The boy bands, weren't they?

Neil1:39:19 Yeah. There's more attitude. I think from.

Chris1:39:22 I think Beatles kind of went somewhere. They went somewhere else. They went. And the Beach Boys did as well. To be fair.

Neil1:39:29 I read a lovely documentary about the Beatles and. And they said that they. And they were. They were that the first boy band. Really. Well, I say first boy. Kind of one of the Biggest bands on the planet. But they. But they. They were, I think, one of the very first that realized that they were a commodity.

Chris1:39:45 Yeah. Yeah.

Neil1:39:46 And it. The. The way that. Their image. And then there's Stones too, actually. But the image. Image and the way they portrayed themselves in the press. For the Beatles, it was this, you know, goody, goody. You know, they were. They were good boys. They were, you know, and the Rolling Stones, it was more about kind of drugs and girls and, you know, rock and roll. And it was interesting. That was kind of. I'm sure there were. I mean, I'm sure there was some of this previous. But they were the first two, like, huge occurrences of it where they were just like caricatures of themselves almost. You know, it was like they're obviously just normal people behind closed doors.

Chris1:40:27 Yeah.

Neil1:40:29 But in front of the press, they. They had these characters to play.

Chris1:40:32 Yeah.

Neil1:40:33 You know, and. And played their part and that. That. That was the product. That was. That was who they were. So. Yeah. Be cool that we've not. We've been threatening the Rolling Stones.

Chris1:40:42 Yeah.

Neil1:40:43 Forever in that. And so this will be. Get one in.

Chris1:40:45 Get one done, Bosch.

Neil1:40:46 Get one in. Do you know I wanted to buy an original Beggars Banquet on the vinyl.

Chris1:40:51 Yeah.

Neil1:40:51 I've got a re. Released version of it.

Chris1:40:54 Yeah.

Neil1:40:54 Which I like, but I don't. I. It's one of those where it's like. Like it's either rubbish and sounds like someone's vomited on it, or it's £1,000,000 and signed by Joe. To me, it's like. There doesn't seem to be much in the middle. So.

Chris1:41:08 Yeah.

Neil1:41:09 I'm like, I'm going to go while you're doing this next because Chris has to do some faffing.

Chris1:41:12 Yeah.

Neil1:41:12 And I get left to my own devices for 10 minutes, which is where I go on discogs and buy stuff. So I might go.

Chris1:41:18 And there we go. Oh, can we just say that we have bongo Cokes, we have bongo coats

Neil1:41:23 and we had Lindsey's Fruit Bass.

Chris1:41:25 One left, one left, one left.

Neil1:41:27 Lindsay. So they're good. I like. You know, I. I'm not a night owl.

Chris1:41:32 No.

Neil1:41:32 I don't like staying up late. And we do stay up late today.

Chris1:41:35 We do.

Neil1:41:37 And I. I find it really challenging. So we. I'll be smashed off my face on fruit pastels and Diet Coke. And then you go home to bed.

Chris1:41:45 Yeah.

Neil1:41:46 And I can't. I just stare at this. I'm like. I just stare at the ceiling. I can't. And one of my favorite YouTubers is Matt Armstrong. And so I'm in that routine now of getting back on a Sunday or a Monday, and I watch Matt Armstrong and then afterwards I watch. You're like, Bob from the machine shop.

Chris1:42:04 Yeah.

Neil1:42:04 And we'll send you a link to Bob from the machine shop. Does welding. He's welding. Hammering, angle grinding. And he's lovely. Long hair.

Chris1:42:14 Yeah.

Neil1:42:14 Rocker.

Chris1:42:15 Yeah.

Neil1:42:15 Lovely guy up. Yeah. But he has a little ponytail, which I was telling my kids how brutal it was at school and they don't believe. They really don't believe me how brutal it was. And then I remember one of my friends at school came to. He had long hair, came into school one day with a ponytail, Right. And his. His name was Anthony and he was called gay to Tony for the next 15 years. He's not gay. No, gay. He got called Gay Tony because he came to school with a ponytail for one day. For one day. It's just like that. That's just how I just.

Chris1:43:01 That's how it was.

Neil1:43:02 That's just how it was.

Chris1:43:03 That's how it was.

Neil1:43:03 And we all, like, just rolled with it, you know, Looking back

Chris1:43:10 to get to the point where his parents just go, oh, I'm Gay Tony. Oh, my gosh.

Neil1:43:17 That's exactly what used to happen, honestly.

Chris1:43:22 Just, just, just went with it.

Neil1:43:24 I mean, I'm sure I've told you before, my, my mad mayo. There's porno Chris. It was just all my mates had, like, really stupid to the point where you would, like, just not introduce. Because now they were. Their names. Yeah, yeah. That was what they were called. No one knew their actual names, you know. No, like, it was just, you know, no, who's coming go karting. And I knew you have to write down on the wave of porno Chris. Gay Tony. Yeah, you'd have to go and write that down.

Chris1:43:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Neil1:43:52 It's mad, wasn't it?

Chris1:43:53 Yeah.

Neil1:43:53 There's a guy called Bob who had called Bob. His name wasn't Bob. They called him Bob because he spelled a po. Oh, my God. That was just.

Chris1:44:09 Yeah, so it was.

Neil1:44:10 Yeah, wow.

Chris1:44:11 Yeah.

Neil1:44:13 You'd just be. You'd just, I don't know, probably get to prison these days, wouldn't you, for that? Good God.

Chris1:44:20 Yeah, yeah, sorry, sorry.

RIFF087 - Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti

Show Notes

When the Riff Becomes a Religion and the Rules Don't Apply

Episode Description

What You'll Hear:

Featured Tracks and Analysis:

Tangential Gold:

Why This Matters:

Transcript

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