This Episode · No. 38

RIFF069 - Pixies - Doolittle

03 November 2025 ·80 min ·Season 2025

0:00 1:19:30

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Show Notes

Quiet verses, screaming choruses, and the album that accidentally invented grunge

Hosts: Neil & Chris
Duration: ~80 minutes
Release: 3 November 2025

Episode Description

Doolittle wasn't just a Pixies album, it was the evolutionary stepping stone between 80s sludge and the Seattle explosion that followed. Released in 1989, this Boston band's third studio effort traded Surfer Rosa's live room chaos for Gil Norton's meticulous engineering, creating the template Kurt Cobain would later admit he shamelessly copied for Smells Like Teen Spirit. Neil didn't get the Pixies for decades, living in his Metallica and Slayer bubble while friends insisted this was essential listening. Chris discovered them through teaching guitar to a student who demanded nothing but Pixies songs, finally understanding what the fuss was about through Kim Deal's basslines and Black Francis' surrealist biblical fury.

This episode unpacks how producer Gil Norton transformed the band's raw energy into structured tension, slowing tempos, layering guitars, wrapping blankets over Joey Santiago's amps to kill reverb, and pioneering the quiet-loud dynamic that became grunge's calling card. The hosts explore why this album peaked at number 8 in the UK but barely scraped 98 in the US Billboard 200, only achieving platinum status in America in 2018 after influencing an entire generation of bands. From David Bowie calling it the most compelling music of the 80s outside Sonic Youth to Radiohead, PJ Harvey, and Weezer citing it as foundational, Doolittle proves commercial success and cultural impact don't always align.

What You'll Hear:

Gil Norton's puzzle-solving production approach: compressors replacing room ambience, vocal doubling, blankets over guitar cabs, and the band recording in complete silence between takes
Kim Deal's influence beyond bass: harmonies, slide guitar, and the sweet vocals balancing Black Francis' dark Old Testament fury
Biblical imagery dissected: Gouge Away as Samson and Delilah, environmental collapse in Monkey Gone to Heaven, surrealist darkness throughout
The quiet-loud dynamic revolution: whispered verses erupting into screaming choruses, copied endlessly but groundbreaking in 1989
Why the Pixies flopped in America but exploded in Europe, taking nearly 30 years to go platinum in their home country
David Bowie interview footage praising the band's dynamics, lyrical imagination, and Joey Santiago's underrated textural guitar work

Featured Tracks & Analysis:

Debaser opens with mythology and fury, establishing the album's foundation. Here Comes Your Man showcases pop hooks wrapped in alt-rock textures. Tame, Hey, and Monkey Gone to Heaven demonstrate the quiet-loud blueprint Nirvana would perfect. The hosts analyze waveforms showing actual dynamic range, quiet bits barely visible, loud sections enveloping rather than crushing, everything the loudness wars later destroyed. Gil Norton's decision to slow tempos added tension, his layered production created the goldilocks balance between Surfer Rosa's rawness and what commercial radio could tolerate.

Tangential Gold:

Nuclear apocalypse nightmares from watching The Sum of All Fears before bed, seven-minute AI uprising predictions, and why Threads remains the most harrowing film ever made
Assembly hall horrors: ozone layer hairspray demonstrations, plastic bags over heads for drug warnings, seatbelt PSAs with children through windscreens
Aldi fruit pastels disappointment, the Middle Aisle of Doom selling chainsaws, texture versus taste in budget sweets
Boston geography confusion, Fringe obsession, Massive Dynamic headquarters hunting, robot dogs at school STEM events
Vinyl pricing disasters: Bush 16 Stone at £300, Goo Goo Dolls Superstar Car Wash climbing from £110 to £250, the £50 limit principle
Universal basic income for musicians on Island Records, AI as creative assistant versus AI as replacement, classical music student perspectives

Why This Matters:

Doolittle is the missing link in rock's evolutionary tree. Without this album, Nirvana doesn't sound like Nirvana, grunge doesn't explode the same way, and the entire 90s alt-rock landscape reshapes itself. This is the record where the right people converged at the right time with the right technology, Black Francis' biblical surrealism, Kim Deal's melodic counterweight, Joey Santiago's textural guitar wizardry, David Lovering's precision, and Gil Norton solving the puzzle of how to structure chaos without killing its soul. The album proved meticulous engineering doesn't require sacrificing dynamics, that quiet-loud contrasts hit harder than constant compression, and that American bands don't need American validation when Europe gets it first. Critics gave it 10/10, peers called it the most important album of the 80s, and subsequent decades proved them right.

Perfect for: Nirvana completists tracing Cobain's influences, grunge genealogy researchers, dynamic range advocates mourning modern production, David Bowie interview collectors, biblical Old Testament lyric analysts, producers studying Gil Norton's puzzle-solving approach, Boston geography enthusiasts, Fringe watchers spotting Massive Dynamic buildings, assembly hall trauma survivors, nuclear apocalypse film survivors, Aldi Middle Aisle explorers, vinyl pricing complainers refusing to pay £300 for Bush albums, quiet-loud dynamic pioneers, Kim Deal bassline appreciators, Joey Santiago texture worshippers, evolutionary stepping stone documentarians, and anyone who believes the best albums don't always chart the highest but change everything that follows.

Transcript

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Speaker0:00 mythology that's beautiful best singing best singing starts off debaser debaser i like this record we're gonna do pictures do little yes neil chris oh sorry yeah i'm neil you're chris this is riffology yeah welcome if you're listening to us website website is riffology.co is you can do riffology it's like a plectrum with riff written on it it's great logo you love you love it just get on that it's good um this album uh i didn't understand the pixies for a long long long long time the pixies to me were a band that other people loved yes like absolutely like my some of my friends were so in love with the pixies and i was like i don't i'm not really sure i get at the time like in the kind of the late 80s yes um like this for me would have been a time of metallica yeah and slayer yeah um and there was a bunch of like kind of death coming out like obituary and so there's a bunch of like stuff that's what would have been my mainstay yeah and we didn't mix with i had lots of friends at school who like were nice people yeah yeah but like i do know another band that was like that for me nine inch nails right okay yeah other people listen to nine it's not me did you have the thing where it's like when when it's like telly where where they go you you'd love the pixies i had loads of that because i was yeah because i was into the pumpkins oh yeah they're exactly the same aren't they no um and they said oh no you should definitely listen to the pixies you're going to love the pixies you're nice and i listened to it and i went where where all the fuzzy guitars like where's the screaming lead breaks where's the snarling vocal yeah and it's like it's i don't know why someone would have said that to me because at the time i like the big warm big thick guitar sounds this is quite chorusy thin kind of sharp sounds don't like being told what to listen to but i do it all the bloody time you do what so people yeah i'm constantly saying oh you've got to listen to this someone did it to me i'm like i'm not really sure about that there's like two people on the planet i'll be like okay i'll listen to that most people i'm like no not um but it's like it's interesting for me doolittle is like i mean i'm trying to think when i really really this hit me it was probably like 2010 or something like that where i kind of realized that you know it's probably a little bit of an arrogant little dickhead when i was that you know with that age in 1988 um and i don't know i would have been 14 all 14 year old boys are dickheads and i do you know i didn't i didn't connect with it but then no later on in my 20s yeah it made sense to some degree it was kind of like oh it might have been my 30s actually i was kind of arch yeah i get this i think it was like monkeys this monkey's gone to heaven for me the first one that did it and i was like oh this this is really cool yeah and then as you go through the rest of the record it kind of pulls you in a little bit and it's an album that i've listened to countless times over over the years and i've always loved it never owned it never you know it's only really since you know when kind of streaming got good enough that you could kind of listen to anything you wanted yes it's kind of around that time really for me that i i kind of fell in love with this but it it listening to it this week again preparing for the show i went back and listened to surfer rosa right okay yeah that's the first one isn't it yeah yeah now the early one yeah before this uh yeah that's the one before yeah um and it's interesting it's it's that's got like um it feels like a live album you know we've talked about this before with some of these where they sound a bit like a live album it's it's yeah it's it sounds um like a live room yeah feel yeah whereas this this doesn't this feels really um like meticulously engineered yes i think yeah it's not it's i don't think surfer rosa has seen a compressor i don't think there's i think you know if there was a compressor involved in that it was on the floor not plugged in yeah i don't think it was involved in surfer rosa very much all whereas here i think you can hear the compressors you can you know it's a bit bigger a bit thicker yeah um than than surfer rosa was um and and it feels like this like natural evolution this natural step if you like between where surfer rosa was and kind of the albums that were surrounding that at the time yes and where we would get to with nirvana and grunge yeah you know do you know i mean it feels like there's this um like evolutionary step between them and that's what do little is and i think that's why people would have asked would have said to me you'll you'll love this because it's like the earlier part of the family tree to all the music that you like you like yeah yeah and i didn't get that i was like no i want i like the fuzzy i like what it is like this now yeah yeah yeah yeah and but for me it was about um because i used to teach guitar while i was at when i was at uni and yeah college and things like that like for pocket but only to people that like smashing yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and i used to teach kids like some really great guitar players loads like there's there was loads of guitar players that are better than me yeah you know by the time i'd sort of done with them and i was like i can't teach you anything anymore too good yeah yeah yeah you're doing really well but they actually like jamming they're like hanging yeah you know that sort of thing anyway this one lad um he was like i just want i just want to learn the pixies and he reminded me of me because when i went to guitar lessons all you wanted was the pumpkins no it was bon jovi at the time oh yeah these days uh no before there was a bit of that but it was a bit before that new jersey yeah yeah yeah exactly new jersey yeah and um my guitar teacher because it was like a classroom based group where there was like loads of people that went and it was because it was quite it was a bit cheaper if there were loads of you like right rather than like rather than like one-to-one guitar yeah so they basically just like used to put me in a room on my own because i didn't do as i was told i bet you were a horror to teach actually yeah yeah but but no i was always really enthusiastic about something else yeah yeah exactly yeah oh god and um and it was like can you teach me how to do this and he just you know he was such a kind man he was very you know really nice guy and he used to come in and show me show me the bits um and then go and and then go and teach the proper stuff you know right and and i was just like still wanting to learn you know richie sambora that was it really and um where else i came with that oh yeah no so when i talk guitar yeah there was this lad that that i wanted to teach but you know all he wanted to learn was he didn't want to learn anything else other than the pixies so i had to learn the pixies to teach him and it was only then that i really went this is actually really good because it because it's not like you know trying to teach someone debates or teaching someone you know here comes your man or what those sort of things you know that you sort of get into the what the songs are and and for me it's all about the color like the tone the tone of the song and and and that's what i really fell in love with with the pixies i uh it's it's an album as well i think that really teaches you what the bass guitar brings yeah to a song yeah you know like kim deals like she brings and her voice i think is it makes a big difference to this record too but i think um you know she she brings the these like phenomenal bass lines which like really elevate the the songs but what i think as well so you you kind of got these these like bits of like uh like baseline brilliance really yeah yeah but then you've also got bits in there where the bass lines kind of just hiding away a little bit and i think it's interesting like something especially like the the really thick heavy rock that i really like yes like you often you didn't know what the bass guitar was doing it's always just hitting the roots yeah so if you like if you if you go and listen to um i don't know stuff off uh like like acdc they're just playing a you have to play at the right time though and there's the rhythm it's all about the rhythm but if you like listen to rain in blood or you know any of that kind of thick heavy yeah yeah you're not listening to the bass is really weird and and this that was what really hit me with this it was kind of like hang on a minute this is you know the bass is actually changing the tone and shape of the song and if yes like if you remove like i mean metallica famously with unjustice for all removed the bass from yeah yeah you still got metallica album you still got like uh uh you know what what you what you expected really it's a weird tone but you still kind of it was still very definitely was of that of that genre um i was just thinking about the lineup yeah as well because they've all got really good names so you've got kim deal on the bass yeah you got charles thompson who goes under the name of black francis do you know where that came from what black francis yeah uh no so because it wasn't he called frank black for a bit as well is that somebody else yeah yeah well yeah that name for a bit so it's i think it's really interesting right so manic preacher in chief he was called charles thompson yeah that was his that was his name his dad christened him with and he went by the name of black francis for the pixies yeah the name black francis was what his dad was going to call the next child that they had really didn't have right and then so when he was looking for a stage name his dad was like try this yeah yeah and that's what happened according to wikipedia yeah which has got to be right yeah so there you go do you know paddy i know paddy he was going to be called oh god no honestly he was going to be called um uh john wayne oh that didn't play better yeah he's going to be called john wayne that's on record on i'm sure it's on the blind when he did the blind boy podcast oh did he yeah i remember him doing the blind boy i'm sure he said it on there so i'm not saying anything that's uh yeah that's brilliant yeah yeah yeah that's but i still remember a song about that i remember doing that cover shoot for um um a ride in the lower here to save the neighborhood yeah yeah just like turning up in his turning up at his family home and just kind of taking the shot of him looking out of the window and it was just i i just it was just really really cool yeah really really cool thing to do it's become quite that that that looks become quite iconic you know the baseball that's a big part of the show now and everything it's mega yeah it was such a good laugh to do that was yeah it was really really cool i just love the fact that he hadn't told anybody he was coming so we all just burst in the door with like camera gear and he was just like can we just go upstairs for a bit and it was just like everybody's like yeah all right and it was like that's what that that's the culture isn't it yeah yeah it's like you grew up in winter that the culture is just like yeah all right fine don't everyone like if you if i just burst into my old family home my dad would call the police probably so so that that's kim deal black black francis yeah david lover david lovering on the john's a good name yeah and the best name i think probably in the world ever joey santiago porn star yeah it is isn't it isn't it yeah it's totally yeah yeah yeah yeah we were we were we were laughing at my friends from school earlier yeah and the two the two that really stuck out everyone's got like porno chris everyone's got mates with like great nicknames um i remember i remember being at work in a i worked in a bank i had a proper job i had to wear like trousers and everything um and my two best mates were mad tony and porno chris so great nicknames brilliant aren't they so we'd all go out every thursday yeah and then like my mates from leicester like we used to go out in burton so my mates from leicester would be like oh shall we are we all right to crash at your place tonight and we'll go out with porno chris and matt tony he's like yeah of course you can of course you can i never did you ever have a cool i never had a cool nickname no i didn't know although my one of my favorite nickname stories ever yeah is uh it is um i'm sure it was on it was on one of these things like festival or one of these like one of these things like that it might or or it could have been a um one of these panel comedy shows i can't remember it was something like that that but um it was the the idea they were talking about like the mad names that they give yeah you know people with nicknames and stuff and blind boy actually there's a few where he talks about really cool nicknames for the most ridiculous ridiculous reasons um and uh there was one way it was about um the the the lad that was called um wayne bruce right and yeah and his nickname was man bat which i think is possibly the greatest nickname ever created i i um man bat we our team is split into three right we've got the us team the emir team and then the apj team out down but the aussies oh my god they are brutal absolutely it's really funny when you know when the dni thing came across everywhere like so about 10 years ago we all had to sit in meetings and learn you said to ban the australians and honestly the aussies were just like well so what i'm like what what am i allowed to say to people they were like we don't get it we're not allowed what what if i say it in like a nice way i remember that was brilliant i i uh yeah i do i love i love my aussie mates they're mega um whilst oh so sorry you were talking about bass and i rudely interrupted you and went really off off piece you did yeah uh so okay so kim deal did did the did the bass she did uh harmonies as well she did um uh bits of slide guitar as well on there so she did all kinds of stuff um i think she strikes me though as like i think her influence on this album is more than the playing yeah yeah because there was like there's pretty significant turmoil i think like i think um was it uh was it kim and joey santiago didn't get on particularly well actually right right um and well that explains because she went on to form the breeders didn't she yeah yeah i i don't think they got on particularly well and there's lovely bits in in their interviews and stuff with uh gil norton yeah like having to almost mediate right but like calm things down yeah um and i mean we've talked about this before where sometimes that kind of uh like combativeness sometimes it makes it worse yes sometimes it makes it better sometimes it kind of you know like we picked floyd and so it made it a bit better i like what you put on the on the blog on this way where gil was kind of like all it was all it was like a big puzzle that he had to solve yeah like the making of this record for him was like from the song perspective but it sounds like from the band perspective as well it was almost like trying to solve this problem i think so i think and so gil talks about a lot of the recording process being almost in silence so yeah so the whole band would be in the room and between takes i mean you know what bands are like there's always stuff happening there's always something you know there's always somebody's like you know when you've got a bunch of people a bunch of mates together in a room there's always you know someone's always doing something stupid yeah yeah yeah um but it was silence yes in between takes and then they would just do it again and then they would just do it again yeah um and i don't know i just i find it like a bit say a bit weird but like the album itself it sounds quite um like it's pop album yeah but hot yeah and i think like surfer rose it wasn't that doesn't sound like a pop album to me this one's got more melody to it and it's got the song structures a bit better that's uh gil norton i think yes and then like you say it's engineered that each each song feels like it's been engineered it feels like it's had um do you know what i mean it's had it's had a structure applied to it yeah well there's a chorus here and there's this bit here and there's this bit there this is how we're almost like it's been dissected then put back together yeah yeah definitely some of that it's more vague when it comes to rock music it's more vague i think we just have a bunch of chords and we gotta fill up spaces and put some words in there and um i don't know i'm in a naive kind of way i'm trying to like be like surreal or dada sometimes it's really crude and it's hardly anything there sometimes it's more developed than other times you know just sort of uh i don't know whenever we all get over to dave's garage and plug everything in uh and i was kind of getting on to the to kim deal's um influence i'll say influence on it but uh you know that the the way she changed the tone of this just by her her vocals and stuff yeah yeah yeah um but like you know the the the vocals black francis vocals and the lyrics are like super weird yeah there's like bits of the bible in there there's kind of you know like surrealism there's like each track is like this world yeah i mean it's like it's like a universe that he kind of creates and builds um and and it's all really quite dark yeah yeah but then kim deal's vocals the backing vocals the melodies yeah they're quite sweet sounding yeah um and it's interesting i know i wonder if it would have been as well received if it wasn't for her her vocal style and kind of bringing that balance yeah yeah yeah to it because the whole album is really dynamic it's like this course like you get these lovely quiet parts like the verses are quiet and the choruses are really loud it's like we've talked about the dynamics before and almost that gets lost with modern records you know where the compressors are wound up and everything's kind of new nudging the limits of everywhere yeah this has got tons of space in there but also there's space within the space right so there's like there are gaps in it there's like there's a like pauses there are bits where the the vocals are like super quiet and then it like builds and you can feel the dynamics rising and then the then the the the chorus will kind of kick in yeah yeah yeah um so it's an it's an album of that this kind of dark and light i think yeah um and kim deals a big i think she's a big part of of that i think without her vocal in this i don't think it would have been no the same record you spoke before we hit record about um and you alluded to it there about the the sort of bible stuff and the and this idea of um there's something that's quite religious about it particularly that's like the old testament there's a lot of it's got a lot of it's from the old testament i gouge away i think is samson and delilah yeah gouge away you can gouge away stay all day if you want to guitar solo Some sacred questions You struck my locks Some marijuana If you've got some Count your way You can count your way Stay all day If you want to La la la guitar solo Sleeping on your belly You break my arms You screw my eyes Been robbing a bad truck We're holding fingers Count your way You can count your hate Stay all day If you want to Train to the pillows A three-day party I break the walls I break the walls And heal us all With holy fingers Count your way You can count your way Stay all day If you want to I'm mostly just In the memories of Bible stories Of the Old Testament And things like that You know And the lyric references You know what I mean You know people could say That like you know He's got that preaching Kind of vocal style But I don't know If it comes from Watching a lot of that I certainly have seen a lot of that And been around a lot of that But I don't know I listen to like Maggie Pop albums About a zillion times too So then I ask them To do it too You know I really don't know Which it is It's just entertainment I think I'm really Just trying to entertain I'm not particularly big On the Bible So I'm kind of relying Heavily on Wikipedia But yeah There's a ton of that Kind of stuff Where You know It's kind of quite Surrealist Or You know Or based on The Old Testament Yeah yeah yeah I think it's interesting It's quite It's all quite dark Yeah Yeah You know There's like This monkey's gone to heaven About the environment And you know Almost like It's almost like lost It's a lost cause We're kind of just doomed It's interesting because We've had that narrative For a while Around that And it's It's amazing to think That you know Even back in the sort of 80s and 90s You know These climate based Conversations Were happening Were happening It was the ozone Remember the ozone Oh yeah yeah yeah I remember we had We had an assembly at school About the ozone Yeah And so I still remember it To this day Captain Planet Oh god Honestly we We had Oh god It's just brought back This horrific memory So we I don't know how old I'd have been I was at junior school Yeah And we had The head stood up And you know They did that You know When As a grown up You realise That these Assemblies Are kind of Literally made up On the journey Into school Or like You know As they're Kind of Oh shit I've got an Assembly Yeah yeah That was my Entire career We had An assembly About the ozone And so the head Just kind of Did this thing And showed A thing You know The overhead Projector Yeah yeah Showed us what The ozone looked like And showed a Round ball And the earth And this is why It's really bad And it's all Going to get hot And that's why You know It's going to be Terrible And the culprit Are these And she brought Like a can of Hairspray And then proceeded To just spray it All over the stage And we were all Just Oh god So the only thing The only thing That was missing there Was the lighter Yeah But the thing is Like you wouldn't Be allowed to do that Anymore No But What make a Flamethrower out of Yeah But it stuck in my Memory I remembered it Yeah Do you remember Oh god we're going To go off piece That was the thing You know Like for a while Set a fight Yeah your kids Were doing things And then I'm sure there was One where like Someone had their Hand blown off Or something Or like really Damaged their hand Because it Kind of What in an assembly Head teachers Blowing themselves up Yeah No I remember I seem to recall It being a thing Where it's like God we've got to Get these kids To stop Setting fights I've got to Offload some Memories from Junior's Corner So the other The other The other Assemble I can only remember Two assemblies Is that one Where she sprayed Hairspray The second one Is it primary school Yeah primary school The second one Was where the police Came in to talk to us About drugs Right okay Because the village That we live I lived in Misham Yeah And the village That we lived in They had a problem And they had a problem With teenagers Getting high On lighter fluid Yeah And so there was What they would do Is they would put A plastic bag Over their head Yeah that was a Thing to do with Geodrine cans And that Yeah They were spraying All this stuff up there And then They would pass out And then suffocate So we literally had Like a police officer Got somebody out Yeah And showed us What it was like With a plastic bag Over your head Like a six year old And I just remember Thinking I would have been Like what seven Yeah yeah yeah Are you sure This is a good idea I mean Do you reckon They ask permission I don't know But it was really Because I used to pull Like not that But But there were things Where I was trying To make a point To the lesson I think there was one About racism actually Yeah Or like No it wasn't It was to do with like Even if you see Someone doing the wrong thing Even if they're in a position Of authority or power Yeah You have to challenge them Yeah If they're doing something wrong So there was one Where I But I made like I had a word with a kid first I was like I was going to be Really mean to you Because I want to see Whether anyone else Kind of started Are you alright with that Are you quite happy with that Yeah yeah cool cool So we did that She started crying And then I got worried Because I thought Oh no maybe I've gone too far She's just acting No she's brilliant She's just acting How cool is that Yeah yeah They'll remember that though They'll remember that Yeah yeah yeah When they have a podcast In ten years time Yeah so she was wicked And then And then And then that's And that's But you plan it With the children Before Yeah I don't know Whether they've done that But you know just Put the bag over there This would have been In the 70s I think you could do What you like Back in the 70s And then the third thing That I wanted to talk about Do you remember We might have to go This might have been Before your time So we might have to Go back on YouTube And show you some Of these things Yeah Do you remember Some of the adverts Yeah That they had And there were There's a few That I think were epic One of them was About wearing seatbelts In cars Right right And they have an accident And the little girl In the back goes She launches through The windscreen Yeah And then there's All the ones with fireworks Like Mad Tony Like Mad Tony Why make Mad Tony But do you remember All the ones with fireworks Where they Yeah And it would be You know And then there was The one where The little kid Kicks his football Into the substation Yeah Oh I've got my thing I see the little kid Kicks his football Into the Power station Electrical Yeah And then he goes And then he gets fried Yeah You can't You don't get like that No no No I feel the need To go and watch them Yeah Do you remember Young Einstein Did you ever watch That film No That had a bit About electric union Did it Yeah Was it good Well I was It was quite upsetting For me But it was quite A funny film Oh While we're talking About films And we're so off Piece That there's no I don't think There's any recovering For this particular Section I watched a movie This week Right So what My bedtime routine Typically We were going to Go watch a film And we haven't Oh we were going to Watch Tron We should do that We'll go and do that I will book it It's been a bit Busy this week Yeah We'll try and fix that Anyway My bedtime routine Typically I do all the things Tidy up where I can do I don't like I don't like leaving mess When I go to bed So I tidy up Put the dishwasher on Yeah That makes me feel better Yeah And then And I go up to bed And then I normally Watch like A YouTube About like Mending wristwatches Yes Or Porsche I really like Porsche So I watch a video About like the history Of Porsche Oh right Okay No Sometimes it's mending I like people Working on Porsches I like I just I like that Right Yeah Anyway Wednesday night Going to bed And I thought I'm going to watch a film Yeah Because it's a little bit early Yeah So I saw this film On Netflix Called The House of Dynamite Yeah And it gave me Really bad nightmares Really And it's about Nuclear war Right So it's about A nuclear missile That gets sent to America But they don't know Where it's come from They just like detect it And it's like mid flight Yeah And it's going to land In Chicago And kill loads of people And it gets told From multiple different Perspectives It gets told First of all From the perspective Of Like the team Like the American Military team Who are sending up Missiles to try And bring it down Yeah And it fails And they all kind of You know That's why I start Vomiting and crying And then you get Like the strategic advisors Giving advice to the president Of what he should do And blah blah blah Right So they're kind of All following the process They've all got lots of Processes to follow And they're just Following the process And doing There's no questions asked They're just doing What's in there And then the final bit Is about the president Trying to make the decision Of how we should retaliate And who to And he's got this List of thousands Of nuclear weapons And you know Do you want to Completely destroy China Do you want to Completely destroy Blah blah blah blah And all this kind of stuff And And you still don't know Where it's come from No Yeah yeah And so the whole thing That's interesting The whole thing Is about the proliferation Of nuclear weapons And you never find out By the way You never find out Whether the nuclear weapon Explodes in the US And you never find out What happens So it kind of cuts off Like while they're Making these decisions Yeah And I then So I fell asleep And then I woke up Like three times And I kept waking up Like in a Nuclear apocalypse Really That really got you then Yeah yeah yeah It just absolutely I went back to Watching videos about Wristwatch Oh and Mend It Mark I love Mend It Mark Or welding One of those things And I've been watching Those ever since Yeah I'm quite fragile really Yeah yeah Do you know what Hit me with it though Is you can't control it Can you No Do you know what I mean And there's nothing Horrific in this movie It's not like an R rated Yeah yeah yeah It's not like threads Yeah you don't see anything Yeah it's not like threads I still have nightmares About threads And I watched it 30 years ago Right I don't know What that is Watch threads Okay Just go Yeah yeah Threads is one of the Most harrowing And like unnerving Apocalypse movies Really Like ever Yeah Like everything You'll judge back Against threads Of how It's really like Yeah properly weird Unnerving movie But it's not like that It's all kind of nice It's all people in Army fatigues Yeah Discussing the order But it properly Went mad in my brain Yeah yeah Yeah yeah Planting seeds Isn't it It is Yeah Got hips like Cinderella Must be having Must be having Good shame Talking sweet about nothing Cookies and then I'm making good friends with you when you're shaking your good frame I'm making good friends with you when you're shaking your good frame Fall on your face on your face and you're shaking your good friends with you when you're shaking your good friends with you when you're shaking your head Fall on your face in those bad shoes. Lionel, love your pain. Lionel, love your pain. We don't like go, oh wow, how loud can we make the song? We just, that's not the experiment. The experiment is just, wow, this is going to be another song. We try to reduce it to what it was like when we were 13 or 14. You start, first start playing guitar in your friend's garage and you just make a bunch of noises and it's fun and that's sort of what we do. We try to keep that same mentality. You know we're not at that age anymore and we're certainly not as immature as that. We're very mature now. So the way we normally do these things is, these podcasts. Oh yeah. So the way they normally, by accident rather than by design, is you do the blog. Yeah. And then, well we choose the album. Yeah. And then you kind of do the blog and you've got your sort of thing that you, you plan quite meticulously. Meticulously. And it's all there. Yeah. And then, and then we rock up at the thing and I don't really know what I'm doing. And then I find some videos that we then put in the thingy. Yeah. In the podcast. And sometimes we enhance the audio. You're like totally giving away all the secrets. But tonight, because normally we've, we look, we look through the videos. Yeah. Of like, um, what, you know, like interviews of, from that era or about that era. But this one is the first one where we've actually got a different artist talking about the Pixies. Oh, the David Bowie bit. Yes. I love it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's got some really interesting things to say about the Pixies. In that interview, he mentions another band that I did not like at the time, but then did. And that's Sonic Youth. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like I need to go and do a Sonic Youth album in the future. We actually, I don't understand Sonic Youth still. So we should. Yeah. Sonic Youth, Fagazi. Like, so that sort of, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a big, big group of those. Do you know, oh, yeah. There's a, yeah. Sisters of Mercy as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're still going, aren't they? They still do stuff. I didn't kind of get it at the time, but now are quite like, it's weird, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Everyone, yeah, yeah. The first time I heard the Pixies would have been around 1988. I found it just about the most compelling music outside of Sonic Youth in the entire 80s, I think. In America, they just didn't ignite people the way that they ignited them in Europe. There was such a lot of sludge in America at the time. I think Pixies had a real hard time pushing their way through to the surface. Three elements, I think, made them important as a sound band. One was their pure dynamics. The very obvious now, but not obvious at the time, dynamic of keeping the verse extremely quiet and then getting, erupting into a blaze of noise for the choruses. That was one element. The second element was the interesting juxtapositions that Charles brought together of quite sordid material at times, I suppose. Charles' lyrics actually dealt with commoner garden kinds of subjects, but the way he, the permutations that he created within the different subjects that he dealt with were so unusual that it caught my ear immediately. It was the sense of imagination, and I use imagination not lightly, not in terms of it being a fantasy, which most people define imagination as, but being able to understand the affinities of something and have those affinities illuminate a subject. It's done so effortlessly, and it's done with such a sense of fun and enthusiasm. There's a great sense of humor underlying everything that Charles does. Three were the colors that Santiago provided as a guitarist. I think as a guitar player, he's terribly underrated. It's much more about texture. He supplies extraordinary texture. One of the strongest songs that I heard at the time was De Basa. Space of Religion, two very basic American subjects. The two subjects closest to the American heart, I think. The pure strength of him on stage, this kind of mass of screaming flesh, this kind of very imposing figure. I always thought there was a psychotic Beatles in there, you know. There's a great reverence for earlier rock music with Charles. One of them was UMass, I like UMass. What they've done is changed the format for delivering harder rock. I don't think that format really existed before they came along. It's a cliche, but somebody once said that Velvet Underground didn't sell many albums, but everybody who bought a Velvet Underground album formed a band. And I would have to suggest that the same thing really applied to the Pixies. Once you heard them, you wanted to have a band. Outside there's a boxcar waitin'. Outside the fan list, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. Out by the fire breathin'. Outside we wait till face turns blue. I know the nervous walkin'. I know the dirty bit hangs out by the boxcar waitin'. Take me way to nowhere place. It is a wait so long. So long, so long, so long. You never wait so long. Here comes your man. Here comes your man. Big shake on the boxcar movin'. Big shake to the land that's fallin' down. It's a wind makes the palms stop blowin'. A big, big storm fallin' break my crown. There is a wait so long, so long, so long. You never went so long Here comes your man Here comes your man Here comes your man Here comes your man Where is it wait so long You never went so long Here comes your man Here comes your man Here comes your man Here comes your man Here comes your man Here comes your man I want to talk a little bit about them not being that big in the United States of America. Even though they're an American band? Yeah, so the UK It landed at number 8 in the UK charts and stayed in charted for 11 weeks. It beaked at 98 in the US Yeah, yeah. On the Billboard 200. I think we only had 40 on our chart. Yeah, top 40. Whereas in the US I think there were 200. So it was staying there for 27 weeks. Yeah, it's interesting. It was platinum in 2018 in the US. It was platinum in the UK fairly soon after launch, I think. Oh, wow. So it took that long to... Yeah, it's really... I think it's really interesting. That's so... Yeah, because they were... They were big in Europe, weren't they? They were big in Europe. Yeah. They just didn't... Just didn't land in America. But I think it's interesting. We talked about this. We hinted at this a little bit earlier. Mm. But they were like a necessary stepping stone, I think. I think they were a massive influence on Kurt Cobain. Yeah. I don't think Nirvana would have been Nirvana without the Pixies. Mm. It feels like this evolutionary next step. It feels like in my brain, this album, this one album... Yeah. ...kind of... It's like that you've got to cross a river and this is in the middle. Yeah. And then by this getting over there, you ended up with Nirvana being... Yeah, the grunge stuff it is. Yeah. So what was on the other side of it then? Would that have been like your Grateful Dead and those sort of things? Probably, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, probably. Yeah. And it's kind of... Yeah, yeah. I think so. Because it's interesting. I like lyrically and... Because where in America are they from? Because is it the Seattle-y bit that sort of Washington-y kind of... That's a good question. I don't know. Well, I should say to the listeners, I've forgotten my glasses. Which means... You've really struggled. I can't read a bloody thing. It's... But I've got my... I've got my... I've got my... I've got my Galaxy tab turned up to full blast. Oh, they're from Boston. Boston. Massachusetts. Okay, right. Okay, so the other side completely then. We work in Boston. I like it. Yeah. It's really good. Do you know other things I like about Boston? Yeah. Have you ever watched Fringe? No. Oh, it's not going to work. In... There's a... There was a big... Is it where... Is that middle America? I don't even know where. Yeah. Go on, no. Boston's... It's near New York. I was going to say, it's that side, didn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That side, east coast. New York. That's how they say it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Chicago, New York, Boston, that's all the same sort of bit. Oh, kind of. Chicago's a little bit further over. Is it? More middle America, yeah. Oh, is it? I don't really know. Boston's coastal, New York. Yeah. But anyway, there's a company called Massive Dynamic in Fringe. You'd like Fringe. How can you not have watched Fringe? I don't know. What? What is it? It's dead good. I'm going to make you watch Fringe. We're not finished. This is going to be a thing where you go, you'll love this. You'll love this. And I'll go, it's crap, mate. I don't like it. You're not going to... We're not moving until you've watched it. No, genuinely, you'll love it. Fringe, right. Someone else has mentioned that to me before, yeah. Fringe is brilliant. Okay, yeah. Is it one where there's loads of series, though? Oh, six. Seven. Yeah, that's going to take six months of my life, isn't it? It is. It will. It's about... It's as good as Sons of Anarchy. I like Sons of Anarchy. It's about two universes connected together. Oh, wow. And stuff kind of hangs, and stuff from one universe goes in and impacts the other universe. And it slowly unveils. It's like a whodunit. Yeah. It's like, it slowly unveils what's happening. And it's like X-Files-y. Very, very X-Files-y. Wow, wow. Anna Torv is in it, who's awesome. I have a massive crush on Anna Torv. She's awesome. Yeah, yeah. Loads of that. It's brilliant. Yeah. It's just dead good. Yeah. It's like science-y, and like, it's got the FBI in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's dead good. It's just dead good. Yeah. In fact, if you want to stop right now and go and watch it, in fact, if you've not seen Fringe, go and watch it. Go and watch it. So is that based in Boston? I bet the Pix is. Yes. So, well, I say it's based in Boston. Yeah. The headquarters of this fictional organisation called Massive Dynamic, the building that they show is the same building from Boston. And when we first went to work in Boston, that was the first building that I went to go and see. Oh, really? Is that Boston Dynamics, then? Is that that? That's a thing, isn't it? Oh, yeah, yeah. But that's not the same thing. No, no, this is Massive Dynamic. Oh, Massive Dynamic. Evil Corp. Oh, okay, right, right. They're really good. Because Boston do the robots, don't they? They do, yeah. Yeah. Not that, though. No. This is, imagine. I met a robot the other day. You met one? Yeah, like a dog one. A dog bot? Yeah. We had them at the, we did a STEM evening at the school, and we had dog robots. Yeah, I bet it was the same one. Was it? Yeah. They kept pushing it, and it wouldn't fall over or anything. Yeah, yeah, and they've got a little camera on it and stuff. That's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a little bit of me that wanted to go just a bit of Black Mirror. You know. Yeah. I read an article this week. We did lots of it. Just punch one. Just punch one. Punch one, and then. Don't punch them. Have you seen? No, no, it was in the robot. Just like, lose it a little bit. Yeah. Just lose it a bit. Go and punch one, and then come back to its normal place. I have to be nice to computers, because in The Hitchhiker's Guide for the Galaxy, there's a robot uprising. Yes, yeah. And they go and kill everybody, and so you have to be nice to them. That's the law. Yeah, because they remember. Yeah. They have hard drives. I watched, I read, we'll be doing loads of AI at work at the minute, and I read an article this week that said the AI uprising will last seven minutes before humanity is totally overthrown. Is that what it is? Yeah. Is that how long it'll take? Yeah. There we go, then. It's good, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, that seven minutes isn't quite long enough for the first single on the new Young Blood album. Which I quite like. Nine minutes. It's a single. Nine minute single. Nine bloody minutes. Yeah, that's good going, I think. Isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, you'll like that. It's like, it's very singy. Yeah. Lots of singy, singy songs on there. I like him. Would you get him on the show? Yes. He'll come on. Yeah. He's doing Bloodfest at the minute. Yeah. Oh, is that now? I don't know. He's always doing, always doing stuff, isn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know, he's one of those people that has too much energy for his own good. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there are people that you are going to get yourself in trouble because you can't sit down. Yeah, yeah. Loads of kids are like that, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're the kids that change the world, though. Absolutely, yeah, yeah. I was able to sit down and do, I'm brilliant at doing nothing. You know, when you've got a long plane journey. Yeah. Even without an iPad or anything, I can just sit and do nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For hours. Yeah. And I'm quite happy with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think Youngblood would explode. But he's going to change the world. Yeah. And I'm not. No, no. Him and Sleep Token. And Ray. Yeah, I bought Leo a Sleep Token hoodie. Did you? He loves it. Yeah. He loves the Sleep Token. Good band. Yeah, he loves the Sleep Token. It's really good. It's a shame they're not old enough for us to cover, actually. We should be able to do that. There will one day. One day there will be. We'll be dead by then. We'll be dead by then. Yeah. I don't know how long we'll. Well, the AI uprising will have finished. What do we do after that? What, after the AI uprising? Yeah. Is it like The Matrix? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Will the sky go funny? Yeah. And there'll be an architect. If there's an opportunity to be the architect, I want the big voice. Yeah. You know the architect and the matrix. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. Yeah. He had all the little TV screens and everything. I think that's dead good. Yeah. I'll be the architect. Although I think he was a computer. He was a program. I can't do that. No. I don't know what I don't know. What do we do? Well, we're a simulation anyway, so it's fine. Oh, I didn't realize that. That's all right then. Yeah. Do you want to tell everybody about your disappointing fruit pastels today? So, earlier in the week, I was in Aldi and I bought, oh, I had a week where I, so what I do sometimes is I'll go to the shop and I'll just get loads of a particular kind of food and then, you know, that'll be my food for the couple of days. Yeah. And this week it was seafood. So, I just went mad. Just went like prawns and salmon and like different things like that. Yeah. So, I had like a bag full of that because I was on my own this week. Yeah. Yeah. So, and then. You go a bit feral, don't you? Yeah. The food of choice was fish or seafood. And then, so on the way out, I went, so obviously in Aldi, you go past the middle Isle of Doom, which is where you can buy like a chainsaw and that. Yeah. And then you go to the other side, which is where all the sweets are. Sweets are, yeah. That's my favorite. So, I walk down there because I sometimes get the Enchanted Mix, which is vegan. Oh, yeah. So, they're going to have gelatin in. Oh, I like them, yeah. Yeah. And they're fizzy. Yeah. Fizzy Sweets. I sometimes have the worm ones, which are like that. So, but this time I looked underneath because we obviously, when we come and do our podcast, it's two cans of Diet Coke Zero and fruit pastels. And that's it. If we didn't have that, we wouldn't be able to do the podcast. No, it wouldn't work, would it? So, they're in the, and the fruit pastels have to be the red and black ones. Yeah. Because they can't be. It doesn't work quite. No, we added one week, didn't we? I like the green ones as well, but it doesn't work quite the same way, no. So, in Aldi, they've got, in the same color bag. Yeah. With a similar colored scoop. Blatant ripoff. Blatant ripoff, isn't it? Yeah. But they've got the black and red fruit pastels, called something else. Yeah. Whatever. Whatever. And they're not very good. Oh. I was disappointed. You were disappointed, weren't you? Well, they taste all right, but the texture was totally wrong. What do you think they were made of? It's best not to ask. No, I don't know. But yeah, I won't be buying those again. Oh. That's, yeah. So-called Aldi. I think that if I wouldn't have had fruit pastels, the proper ones. Oh. Oh, so you think you've been, you think you've been spoiled a little bit by them. Yeah, I think that's what it is. I've got cramp in my foot. I'm going to have to stretch. What did you get cramp? Do I get cramp? Yeah, cramp. In my thigh. In my calf and my thigh. Yeah, I get it there. Just that bit. I get it there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just there. I'm pointing on the podcast to my, whatever that bit's called. This is a great episode, isn't it? Isn't it? Yeah, this one's off-piste. It is. It's going to be great. You can imagine people are like a really hardcore Pixies fan. They'd be like, you would get that kind of dear so-called podcast. I can hear. And if that's you, we're really sorry. Yeah, yeah. But, you know. You could just get the Aldi fruit pastels. It's just the way it is. But shall we come back on track? Oh, yes. I'd like to talk about the critical reaction. 52 minutes in. Critical reaction to this album. Yes. Guess what everyone said. I don't know, actually. Because it's one of those where it's either going to be the greatest album ever, and it's going to open the universe to a new genre of stuff, or people are going to go, I don't get it. It's a bit weird. All loved it. So, Melody Maker loved it. They all loved it. Loved it. NME gave it 10 out of 10. All English, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. NME gave it 10 out of 10. Rolling Stone and Village voice placed it in album of the year. Modern Praise. Pitchfork put it as the number four best album of the 1980s. Rolling Stone, 144 of their all-time 500 list. NME put it as number two on their 1980s. Number eight of all-time albums of all-time. Mojo. This is the difference, isn't it? All-time albums. Yeah. That's the one, isn't it? That's where it's landed in history. It's like... But it's interesting to me that it wasn't massive at the time. So, it didn't land commercially. It wasn't like Nevermind. No. Which is like, or Back in Black or, you know, it wasn't like One of Those or, you know, Dark Side of the Moon. But I think it's interesting for me. It's what you said about it being a stepping stone album. It changed stuff, didn't it? It's a landscape shifter. Yeah, it did this kind of thing, like, changed. And then there was just a whole bunch of stuff that happened, like, on the back of it. And they're always interesting for me, these albums, because you kind of never really know. Like, if the Pixies hadn't made it, would somebody else have made it? It almost gave a lot. It gave permission for other artists to sort of do the thing. I guess what I'm getting at, is it a function of its time? Or is it, like, a bunch of other stuff that was happening around the same time, and that's what gave birth to this record? Or is it, which is my personal theory on this, is it's just a function of the right people at the right time. So, it's Gil Norton, and it's kind of, you know, it's having all these people in the studio. At the same point in time, the fact that... It's interesting that Bowery called it, was it a psychotic Beatles? Is that what he said? Psychotic Beatles! It's a lovely description. It's a great analogy, but you always hear that said about the Beatles, in that that's the product of those four guys and the producer coexisting at the same time. And just sort of, like, stumbling across each other. And that's the product of that relationship, and that time, and that technology. And that's perhaps what this is. Yeah, yeah. You might be right, actually. I think... Yeah. It's... There is... I think that's why music's so beautiful as well, though, because it is a capture. It's a snapshot. It's a capture of a particular... That's kind of where I was going with it. It's a point in time, isn't it? It's something that couldn't be reproduced. You know, like having, like, Kim Deal in a grumpy mood kind of thing. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And the band, like, sitting in silence a little bit. Reminds me a little bit of Rumours, where Fleetwood Mac were. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and Pink Floyd with... Yeah, Pumpkin's another example of that. Yeah. Yeah, very much so. But the band are just not functioning very well. No, no. Just well enough to kind of get an album out. And, like, you're replicating that is... Because, like, I mean, you've always talked about this, but it's like... It's like the way you play, almost, you know, and the music that comes out of you is kind of part of who you are and how you're feeling at that time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you can't replicate that. Like, you know, plucking the same band, putting them back into the studio a year later, you'd have got a completely different record. Very true. Or, like, you know, a few albums before that, you know, obviously you've got Surfer Rosa. But it's, yeah, it's not necessarily, like, the impact it had on the charts. No, no. I think it's the impact it had on other people and other musicians. And, like we talked about before, you know, Kurt Cobain said that, like, massively impacted. Yes, yeah. And Smells Like Teen Spirit, he said, that was, you know, unashamedly trying to write a Pixie song. Yeah, yeah. And I don't know. But there is, there's a bit of me that kind of thinks if this album hadn't been made. Yeah. You know, what, the gap it leaves is so big. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, you know, what happened after it may not have, yeah, may not have happened in the same way. Yeah. I mean, may not have happened in quite the same way that it did. So, yeah, there is weird. It makes you kind of, it makes you kind of want to draw this, like, like musical tree. You know, I'm sure, I'm sure people have done it. Yeah. I'm sure it exists out there on the internet already. Yeah, just where, like, where it fits in the ecosystem. No, the genealogy, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, of kind of where these things came from and the influences. And, you know, I think it's, it's, I don't know. Yeah. I think it exists in kind of every genre, I think, where the branch splits. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and it just changes or, and it's like, sometimes it splits, like, really hard where you've got, like, you know, you're tracing, like, Kublai Khan and Spite and, and, you know, these kind of, like, modern hardcore bands. Yeah. And metal, like, metal hardcore bands. Yes. Back to actual hardcore and back to punk. Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, you can kind of, sometimes you can, like, you can split, you can split it based on the album directly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know there's, it's more subtle. It's like, you can't quite, you can't quite see it. But I think this is one where there's a, there's a bunch of subtle stuff happening behind it. And then this is a really hard. Yeah. This is like a spike. This is a big fat node where after it, like, you know, a bunch of big, like, all that big Seattle scene. Yeah, yeah. It just opened the door to that. Yeah, the old rock scene and the grunge. And I just, it just feels like without this record, that, that still probably wouldn't have happened. We've, we've spoken about like, um, gateways. Yeah, yeah. About bands being a gateway for other bands. Yeah. But from a taste, musical taste perspective, but actually from a creative perspective, that's probably true as well. Yeah. And then it just opens the floodgates to this whole new kind of era of stuff. Yeah. And again, this is something you've talked about where you like it, like your playing is, was influenced by what you learned as a young guitarist. Yeah. And that was Jon Bon Jovi and Smashing Pumpkins. Yeah. And so like your style and the way you play and the, you know, that's influenced by that stuff you first learned. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, somebody who first learned the guitar to Pixie's songs is, is, is going to have a different thing going on. Yeah. And that, that, that genealogy, those influences, it's funny because then you get, but then you get four different people or five different people, six different people with different influences and then you put them together in a melting pot and then a thing happens. And then that then becomes, oh, that's great. That's so cool. It's really organic. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember Pandora? There was a website called Pandora. Yes, I do remember that. Yeah, I thought all about it. Music genealogy. I always remember loving that and thinking that was such a cool thing to do. I mean, it got used for like radio and finding music that's similar. But I, I, I always felt that that could have been bigger and different. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but yeah, it is, it's all about that, isn't it? It's all about trying to. That's what I quite like, you know, when you find a new thing and you quite like, and then suddenly you've got those bits at the bottom where it's, you know, if you like this, here's a load of recommendation. I mean, that's quite cool as well. I, I, I love, I, there was one of the things I really like about Apple music is I can go to the artist and then scroll to the bottom and it's, but it's, it's, it's not, it's not done based on that genealogy. It's literally other people. It's like Amazon shopping. It's like other people who like this, you're like this. I've also listened to these. And I always liked that because you, like you click on a band and you go and you like, normally you know what it's going to be. Like you can, if you're into music, you kind of know, if you click on pixels, you kind of know the, the other, other artists, right? But there's always one that's like a bit left field and you think, what's that? And you, you dive in. I can waste an entire day doing that. Just kind of surfing, um, artists. Cause then you, like you'll go from one, then you jump to another one and you think, oh, or it will be, do you know what I mean? Like for me, uh, the last couple of weeks, uh, I've gone on a real nine inch nails back catalog binge because of Tron. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I was, oh, that's really, really cool. But then that spins you off to a whole bunch of other artists. And, and I know we, we, we, we call music streaming quite a lot in the music industry because obviously it doesn't, you know, give artists a lot of money. It doesn't pay any money. It doesn't, but in terms of as a consumer, it's just incredible, you know, in terms of the discovery engine that it has and all that sort of stuff. It is, you know, you just, you just kind of wish, I really wish, um, cause it's, cause it's all based on streams and what people listen to also listen to. Like a young art, a new breakthrough artist. It's really, it's hard. You can't break through. You can't get your voice heard cause it's like, you know, needle in a stack of needles. Um, and you kind of think we've got to be so close to having AI be able to, to fingerprint music styles and like go, Hey, you've been listening to nine inch nails this week or you've been listening to, um, you know, whatever. And, and it kind of goes here, here are some artists that sound really like those and they might not be massive. They might not have 10,000 followers a month. They might be, you know, tiny little bands, but they've, they've, they've put something out. They're really good. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think there's, um, the feeling that there's going to be a really nice period of time just ahead of us for music because of the levy, you know, the, the big, the big, um, Oh yeah. From the big artists. Yeah. Big artists. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Funding smaller. Yeah. Yeah. Grassroots stuff through, um, the live thing. Um, and I just think that that's, that's good because that creates more melting pots. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that, that creates more, more of a, more of a supportive environment. Like if you've seen what Island had done. No. So Island have basically given, um, universal basic income to musicians. Oh wow. Yeah. That's quite cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so, so, so a number of musicians are basically, you know, it's not loads of money, but it's enough to survive. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's sort of, here's some money so that you can create. Yeah. And you haven't got to worry about money while you're creating. Wow. Um, and I think that, I think there's probably going to be a wave of this sort of thing coming now. It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. It is interesting to see where music is going to, going to go. It's, um. Because the technology that's around is insane. It's incredible. I was talking to one of the, um, I took all the, all the boys from school, not all the boys from school. We took 10 of the boys from school to, to, um, Ninja Warriors this week, which was a good laugh. Yeah. But one of the older boys was there. He didn't want to go and bounce with the smaller boys. So I was going to have a chat. I mean, he's a classical musician and we were talking about music and stuff. And, um, it's really interesting. His take on it, like being quite young and, you know, uh, it was interesting. I was asking him what he felt about AI music and stuff. Um, and he was like, I don't like having AI writing the music. So that doesn't work for me. So it doesn't like, I don't, I'm not inspired by it particularly. And it kind of writes in a really clunky, obvious way. And it's not very great. Um, but using AI to help me write music that works. It works really well for me. Yeah. So the system hasn't it? And having analyzed my music. So, so he said, I'll write a piece and then have it, have it, uh, like provide critique and, and, and give me guidance on what's good and what's bad about it. That I really liked. That works really well for me. And, um, I thought it was really interesting the way he, he'd like what, you know, one of these things was almost the AI doing the thing. that wasn't, you know, didn't find, find that particularly valuable, but, but him being in the driving seat and writing these pieces of music, it's an assist. It's a, it's a, it's a tool to help you to do your thing. And he said, it just gives you ideas. Like he said, you're what you said, what I'm getting from it is that you do it and then it will give me feedback, like, uh, you know, uh, maybe consider, uh, uh, changing the phrasing or changing the speed here or, and it gives you ideas. You don't have to take them, but it's like, it's like having, it's like being able to get a friend and forcing them to listen to your music and then for, but then, but for them to be able to have, be articulate enough to be able to talk to you in the, in the language that you need. I like, I like that. It was quite cool. Give us some ideas, give us some pointers, give us some. Yeah, don't do it for me. Just help me, help me do it. Um, I thought that was quite good. Yeah, definitely. So who knows? Music, music might be, we might be in for a, a great time or I might just carry on listening to, um, Ride the Lightning instead. We haven't done Ride the Lightning, have we? No, no, we should. We should do something. Shall we play a song and then decide what we're going to do? Oh, we need to do facts, don't we? Should we do facts? Should we do, what should we have? Should we do, what's the order? Well, here's the problem about facts. Yeah. Uh, I can't read the, because I've not got my glasses. Yeah, yeah. Shall I do some basic facts? Yeah, basic facts. Yeah, do basic facts and then we'll play a song and then we'll. Um, so it was released on April 17th, 1989. Could you say I guess I had a yawn? It was released on April 17th, uh, 1989. April 18th in the US. Right, after. I think they, they used to release on Tuesday. Um, allegedly it was $40,000 the budget to record. That's not a lot of money, is it? No, apparently they had $10,000 for Surfer Rosa. Oh, so it's a lot more than what they had before. Hmm. Um, personnel, Black Francis, Kim Deal, Joey Santiago, David Lovering and Gil Norton was the producer. Um, he described himself as the drill sergeant, which I thought was quite funny. Um, Gil Norton had a big impact on the record. Um, he slowed down tempos, which I think that's really interesting. Yeah. Um, he added a bunch of, uh, tension. So in DeBasa and stuff, he kind of changed the structure. Yeah, you can feel that. Yeah, there was a lot of kind of tension that was added, which I think is really, really good. Um, layered guitars and used compressors instead of the kind of open room ambience that they were using before. And there was a big fight about reverb. Yeah. And, uh, I think it was. Oh, there was something about putting blankets over the cabs or something to stop the reverb. Yeah, so Joey Santiago really didn't like that. So he was putting blankets over his cabs to, to, to kind of dry things out, which I think is, uh, uh, yeah, really interesting. Um, Gil Norton spent a couple of weeks ahead of the recording studio, just going through all the demo tapes and stuff to kind of get, getting prepared. So that's the puzzle bit. Yeah. Yeah. Um, there's a lot of vocal doubling, uh, which they didn't do before. Um, uh, yeah, which I, I, I think is, uh, uh, it's just interesting how big an impact a producer can have. Yeah. I think. Yeah. Um, uh, lots of, uh, things here around themes and imagery from this. So, um, uh, Black Francis was a, I mean, I don't know where he got the information, whether he'd read, the Bible or whether it was just a, I don't know, frown. Yeah. No, there's a piece where it was, I think the household that he grew up in. Yeah. Was very religious. Ah, that would be where it comes from. So, yeah, I think there was a, there was a lot where it was kind of like, he soaps it up a little bit. Yeah. Tons of themes in here about the Bible and, um, Old Testament, particularly, um, dead and gouge away. Um, environmental collapse in monkey gone to heaven, just talking about the, you know, it's just too late to, to deal with. Even though it's a promotional thing, like an advertisement, um, the more, I think most people that make videos, they don't have any respect for the song because they're, they're treating it as a promotional thing and not as, this is a song and that's the, that's the source documents for this, just like a book or something else. That's what you're not like showing a snippet of a song. You're playing the whole song and you're, you're, you're experiencing the whole audio thing of this is their whole song that you're hearing. And, and, and they, they, they forget about that. And then also as far as filmmaking or TV hobbyists, something, I mean, I doesn't have a lot of respect for that. It's, it's not cool enough. All them budgets and all them cameras, they can't come up with anything better than that. The lyrical context through the whole record is just all over the place. It's not, it's not like a theme, but it's all really dark and darkish. It's dark or funny. It's, I think it's really interesting. Um, peaked at number eight on the UK charts and 98 on the US billboard. Didn't do that well in the United States at all. Um, did better after a while. Yeah. Um, but I think it did better after you had like Kurt Cobain talking about pixies being an influence. Yes. But not all the time. Um, it was the UK press absolutely fawned over it and thought it was the best album ever. Um, Nirvana quoted it as a huge influence. So did Radiohead, PJ Harvey and Weezer. See, I wonder if that's where this notoriety comes from. This idea of being the greatest record amongst the greatest records of all time is because other artists deem it to be the greatest record of all time. And, and, and, you know, those narratives weave themselves in, don't they? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I think you're right. And there's a bunch of stuff in here that I think is like that whispering before screaming. Yeah. I mean, that kind of started that, um, that light and shade thing. Yeah. And, and, you know, this, this got copied massively afterwards, but at the time this was like unheard of to have quiet verses and loud, loud choruses. Um, and, uh, there are more facts, but I can't read them because I've not got my glasses. And that is the facts. Right. Let's play a tune then. Tune. So you can hear all these things in action and then we should talk about what's next. Okay. Hey. Been trying to meet you. Hmm. Hey, must be a devil between us or whores in my head, whores at the door, whore in my bed. But, hey, where have you been? If you go, I was sure to die with change. What change, what change, what change, what change, what change, what change, what change, what change. To make a cool rock tune as our goal and we live for all of that song when we're making that song and, you know, I appreciate bands that have a, they're very stylistic and, and remain in their particular corner of sound or persona or image. which I, I like that, but, um, we're just not real good at that. Better just think about a one little two minute experience and try and make it good. Sit the man to the lady. Sit the man to the lady. Sit the man to the lady. Sit the lady to the man she adored and the whore is like a choir. Uh, uh, uh, all night. And Mary, ain't you tired of this? Yes, the sound As the mother makes when the baby breaks What's your aim? What do you reckon then? Because last week we did some planning We spoke about a few things What? Yeah, we said we'll do that And then we'll do that And then we'll do that And then we'll do that I think we spoke about doing Bush next Bush! 16 stone! We did I'm sure we did Is it legal? Yes Is it? Oh, I don't know now Who said that Bush! I'm sure it is I'm sure it's 98, 99 94 Oh, way before then Get in! It's one of my favourite albums This album has a track on it Called... Well, there are two on here That I absolutely adore There is one called Little Things And... Yeah, I don't know I just love it I just absolutely adore this album I used to play Come Down quite a lot in sets That was one of the big singles, wasn't it? Yeah, but I like the slower version of it Not the faster version of it Oh, okay Is it on the normal track listing? I'm just looking at the slower version I've not got my glasses I can't really... I can vaguely make out Glycerine I can vaguely make out Glycerine Yeah, that's a good song as well Everything Zen Swim Bomb Little Things Come Down Body Machine Head Testosterone Monkey Glycerine Alien Ex-Girlfriend Right, so where was that I'm like 50-50 Whether that 50-50 from memory And I'm squinting at the screen There's definitely another version of Come Down Like, there's like a faster than Out of the normal album version Yeah But it might have been a B-side then It might have been a B-side for something But there was definitely a slower version of Come Down Because I loved it I thought it was really, really good Yeah, it could easily have been actually They did a lot of that kind of stuff For me, they are a band that Like, are Because they're playing a lot of festivals They sum up American Like alt-rock and grunge But they're British Yes And I remember first finding out They were like a British band And I was just like How's that, yeah Yeah, horrified So like, shell I was like, what? Yeah, yeah, yeah What do you mean? Because it was so American sounding, wasn't it? I mean, quite clearly That's not a British band Like, quite clearly The production's American Vocals are American It sounds like it's got like an American twang Yeah, yeah, yeah The vocal style And, yeah And we talked about this a few weeks ago This is an album I would love on vinyl You just can't get it It's too expensive It's like one million pounds But it's stupid Yeah, yeah, yeah Stupid Yeah Reissue Well, I don't think I don't like the reissues That's the trouble But I'll buy one if I have to Yeah But I can't even find Maybe someone could, like, send you it Yeah, if you've got it Can you send it? There's a couple There's like this There's like A couple of Goo Goo Dolls records Yeah So, like, I'd love Superstar Car Wash Yeah Or Boy Named Goo Mm And you've got all of these You just can't buy them Can't buy them They're stupid Like the Goo Goo Dolls Superstar Car Wash Which we've talked about loads In the show in the past And it's one that I would love It's one of my favourite records Yeah, yeah I had a chance to buy a copy of it For £110 Yeah And I thought, I'm not paying £110 No Get lost Yeah Do you know how much it is now on Discogs? About £300 £250 Yeah, yeah It's crazy, yeah Stupid Yeah Stupid people Yeah, yeah, yeah I had that with Melancholy Yeah I always wanted a copy of Melancholy But it was always £400 It's mad Yeah But I managed to get one I thought, what's it, £50? I think I got it for That's alright Three records Yeah There's like So, there are Like, yeah £50 is kind of the limit for me I kind of get to a point where I just think I'm not paying more than that for it It's like It's like shoes I won't pay more than £50 for shoes Yeah, yeah, yeah Like, there's a limit I'm not doing it No Can't do it It makes me feel, like, sad inside Right, music should make me feel happy inside Yeah, yeah, yeah And like, I don't know I'm sure that The other thing is The band aren't seeing that money, are they? No That's the thing Second-end market, isn't it? Yeah, yeah And it's interesting A lot of it is Like Earache They're repressing stuff Every day There's like new stuff being pressed And like Nuclear Blast are doing similar as well Yeah, yeah, yeah And there's a bunch of these that are doing Like, reissues and stuff And it's interesting Because it kind of keeps the prices down Yes Because they're constantly being reissued You've always got those originals That's, I mean I'm totally cool with collectors Having a copy of Superstar Car Wash That's worth 500 quid Yeah Because it's an original And it's blah, blah, blah, blah And I would love to have You know, I would love to have That original copy Yeah But I'm still totally cool with spending 20 quid on a copy Yeah Of it As long as I can You know what I mean? Because like, we've talked about this before But for me, during the week Sometimes I just I love to be able to turn around Take a record out And put it on And I don't know It just kind of That's your Yeah, cup of tea time And you just Yeah, yeah, yeah You know what I mean? Especially at lunchtime Because I work from home So especially at lunchtime Or, you know If I'm going through emails Or whatever else I'll put that on in the background And you just Yeah You know, it's nice Yeah, yeah, yeah I don't want to have to pay 500 pounds for it Yeah, no, exactly Exactly Balls So Oh, yeah Bush We've decided Yeah, it's done Bush Saw it at Bush Bush Bush See you next week Sorry.