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Unknown: We'll be right back.
Neil: We'll be right back.
Neil: Yeah, no.
Neil: And he was on Hootenanny.
Neil: Was he?
Neil: Craig David was.
Neil: I love the fact.
Neil: Took him for a drink on Tuesday.
Neil: I've forgotten.
Neil: Took him for a drink on Wednesday.
Neil: Who was the guy that did Bo Select?
Neil: I've forgotten the guy that did it.
Neil: It's the guy with Keith Lemon, isn't it?
Neil: I can't remember his real name.
Neil: But they, like, so he did it and they did this interview with him.
Neil: Martin Jarvis.
Neil: And they said, why did you, like, why did you pick on Craig David?
Neil: And I don't know.
Neil: Like, destroyed a dude's career.
Neil: But feels, I think he generally feels remorse about it now.
Neil: Lee Francis.
Neil: That's what it was about.
Neil: The interview was about, and he was literally saying, look, he said, I was a comedian and
Neil: I just thought it was funny.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: He was this megastar.
Neil: I was nobody.
Neil: And I just made fun of him.
Neil: I just imagined that he had a, had a Kestrel.
Neil: And I just thought that would be funny.
Neil: And then I just, and then I went down this rabbit hole of, like, inventing this character.
Neil: Nothing to do with Craig David.
Neil: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Neil: I just went down the role of, of, like, wouldn't it be funny if.
Neil: Yeah, yeah.
Neil: And then.
Neil: Which you do.
Neil: You do.
Neil: And then, like, both.
Neil: He said, but he said that as I wrote it, I was, I was like, you know, I was literally
Neil: in my bedroom in my pants.
Neil: No one knew who I was.
Neil: And Craig David was the biggest megastar in the UK at the time.
Neil: So, like, that, you know.
Neil: There you go.
Neil: I picked on the biggest.
Neil: No, I was this, you know, tiny little nobody in my pants and I picked on Craig David.
Neil: And then Bo Selector blew up and all of a sudden it was not cool to be Craig David.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: So I never intended that.
Neil: Sorry, Craig.
Neil: Yeah, sorry.
Neil: But he's still very funny.
Neil: He's still very funny.
Neil: Weird, isn't he?
Neil: I'm Chris.
Neil: Oh, yeah.
Neil: I'm Neil.
Neil: This is Riffology.
Neil: Riffology.
Neil: And what we're doing?
Neil: What are we doing?
Neil: We're doing Siamese Dream, which has been a long time coming, I think.
Neil: And I'm glad, because last week when we started speaking about this, I was talking about, like,
Neil: oh, maybe what if we did, like, a later one?
Neil: What if we did, like, a door or Machina or, you know, one of these later albums?
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And you put your foot down a bit.
Neil: You were sort of like, no, we're doing Siamese Dream.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And I'm glad you did choose Siamese Dream.
Neil: There's a story.
Neil: There's a real story to it.
Neil: The interviews that we've got, and they're all from, pretty much from Rick Beato and spliced
Neil: them from there.
Neil: When we do these interviews, we basically steal them.
Neil: We just steal them off.
Neil: Anywhere we can get them.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: We just steal stuff.
Neil: And then, but make it fit our podcast.
Neil: So if we're not allowed to do that, really sorry.
Neil: Rick will come and get us.
Neil: He's not as shy, is he?
Neil: He'll knock on the door.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Oi.
Neil: But actually, if you don't want to, you know, shut us down, go and listen to his stuff because
Neil: he's really good.
Neil: Don't tell him that we did this.
Neil: Yeah, don't tell him.
Neil: Don't tell him we stole his interview.
Neil: He's a lovely guy, Rick.
Neil: I think he's not.
Neil: He's very funny.
Neil: First time I listened to his, I thought he was a little bit pretentious.
Neil: You know, he's kind of a little bit, you know, but the more I listen to him, the more
Neil: I like him.
Neil: He's great.
Neil: I think he's really passionate about music.
Neil: And I like the one-armed scissor one he did about, at the drive-in.
Neil: He did like a breakdown of that.
Neil: It was so good.
Neil: I like it.
Neil: I've done some of the metal ones.
Neil: I love it when he, when he like, he's like, he's talking about chord structures and stuff
Neil: and he tries to play along and like, he's playing along with like a metal band.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And he just grabbed, he'll just grab like an acoustic guitar and just, and he's just dead
Neil: good.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: He's just, he's just, he's like, listen, like, yeah.
Neil: And off he goes.
Neil: Dead good.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Dead good.
Neil: But anyway, we, we decided Simon's dream.
Neil: Yes.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And I, you know, like even just, um, and I was facing the other way, um, and I played
Neil: the intro to Cherub Rock.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Uh, just while I warmed up and I teared up.
Neil: Oh, no way.
Neil: That's, that's how much this album means to me.
Neil: It's so, it's so strange.
Neil: Like it's such a, um, it's such a, a pivotal album for my musical development.
Neil: This, this, this one, because it's, um, and I have such a, a strange, a strangely emotional
Neil: connection to it.
Neil: Like if any of the songs ever come on, there's no point in even trying to have a conversation
Neil: with me because I'm not, I'm not in the world.
Neil: I'm, I'm with the album, if that makes sense.
Neil: Because, which is strange because I never had the, when someone said recently, like, go,
Neil: you know, will you come and watch the pumpkins live with me?
Neil: And I'm like, no, because my relationship isn't with watching the pumpkins live.
Neil: My relationship with the pumpkins is me on my own in my room with Soma on repeat.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: For, for hours.
Neil: I'm a bit the same.
Neil: I like, I like going to live gigs and stuff.
Neil: Um, but I tend to, I often tend to do it on my own.
Neil: Um, like when I was shooting gigs as a photographer, I'd often, I, I found I enjoyed that much more.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Cause I could do what I wanted.
Neil: I could go, you know, there were bits that I wanted to, to follow.
Neil: And, and, and I don't know, but it is, it's a, for me, it's a quite a personal,
Neil: yeah, it is a personal relationship with, with the band.
Neil: But my journey this week with this record has been learning about the story.
Neil: And I didn't know, I, I, I had no idea the band was sort of on its last legs for a lot
Neil: of this era of its life.
Neil: Like it only just started really.
Unknown:
Neil: I didn't know.
Neil: They'd done one album and it was about done.
Neil: Like they were about all done with it.
Neil: I did not know anything.
Neil: Like, obviously you're like a super fan.
Neil: Lizzie's a super fan of the pumpkins.
Neil: And so, you know, that's kind of how I'd, um, got, I mean, so Lizzie's, um, uh, Pink Floyd
Neil: as well.
Neil: So she, that's where my, I mean, I, I mean, my, I'm not particularly mature, right.
Neil: So my music taste was, you know, prong and slayer and, and, you know, but, and then I,
Neil: and I, and when I grew up a little bit, I can't like, I like death metal.
Neil: And so this stuff at the time absolutely passed me by.
Neil: And then discovering that over the, the, the, the last 20 years or so, um, you know, the,
Neil: the, these have become records that I really liked, but I don't know nothing about them.
Neil: And I don't really know anything about the, like the, that, that scene at the time.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: I just wasn't part of it.
Neil: So I didn't really get it.
Neil: And preparing for this show, there's just the story behind this, um, you know, everything
Neil: about it, like kind of sets this up for being, um, having an interesting story, but also like
Neil: so close to failure at every point before had been an indie release.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: There was a shoegaze thing.
Neil: All the songs were five, 10 minutes.
Neil: Solid, solid indie record and made them really, really popular.
Neil: And they'd kind of established that, uh, that relationship with that, you know, it established
Neil: that, um, the credibility as an, as a solid indie band.
Neil: Um, and then you had, um, nevermind go crazy.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And then all of a sudden everybody's focused on the pumpkins kind of going, well, you're,
Neil: you, you've got to create now the next record.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And like, you know, the, the pumpkins have done, they're just sitting at home doing, you
Neil: know, they're, well, they're out on tour with Gish, right?
Neil: So then they're not thinking about Nirvana and all of a sudden every press interview is
Neil: asking them, you know, what do you think about this?
Neil: Well, you, how are you going to do this?
Neil: So they're under this massive pressure to, to do that.
Neil: Billy's now in this situation where he's got to write a followup to an album that he
Neil: didn't write in the first place.
Neil: He's just minding his own business.
Neil: And all of a sudden everyone's going, you've got to write a followup to nevermind.
Neil: But not only that, the Butch, Butch Vig was the producer that they work with of all of,
Neil: of all of these things.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: So like he, so he's in this really interesting position because they've, they've got a relationship
Neil: with, between Billy and Butch.
Neil: And then suddenly Butch has gone off to do this mega album.
Neil: And now, and, and, and there's this great story, which we'll play just now, which is like,
Neil: Butch, Butch and Billy kind of having it out a little bit because Billy's gone, you've
Neil: taken my guitar.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Like you've taken my guitar thing that I do.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: You've used that for Kurt.
Neil: And now Kurt's done Smells Like Teen Spirit.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: But that's kind of like my thing.
Neil: That's kind of like, and that's got to be really hard.
Chris: I was at Smart Studios the day Butch got the Nirvana job for Nevermind.
Chris: There was originally another producer that was supposed to be on the session with him.
Chris: And when I said, why do they want you to work with this other producer?
Chris: Well, they don't trust me.
Chris: I'm too young.
Chris: Kurt wants me, but they, they need the other producer to be an adult in the room, something
Chris: like that.
Chris: I'm paraphrasing.
Chris: That producer dropped out.
Chris: So then it became Butch's job.
Chris: So we were very close to Butch.
Chris: Butch bangs off to go do what became Nevermind.
Chris: As I've told this story a few times, we're sitting with him on a Wisconsin lake on July
Chris: 4th, whatever the year would have been.
Chris: He says, you want to hear the new Nirvana?
Chris: He's got a boombox.
Chris: He presses it in its teen spirit.
Chris: And, you know, as the sun's going down on a beautiful Wisconsin summer day.
Chris: And I had two reactions.
Chris: First of all, I was like, oh, he ripped off Boston more than a feeling.
Chris: Interesting.
Chris: And then when the song kicked in, I looked at Butch and I said, you ripped off my guitar
Chris: song, motherfucker.
Chris: And he kind of was like, I guess I did.
Chris: Because everything that he took into that was stuff I taught him.
Chris: Butch didn't need me to teach him how to mic up a cabinet, but the way I would layer guitars.
Chris: Butch was like, oh, I'll take that.
Chris: So now Nirvana's on the radio every 18 seconds.
Chris: And, of course, every time I hear the guitar, I'm like, oh, there's my guitar sound.
Chris: And, you know, Nirvana blows up big.
Chris: Pearl Jam blows up big.
Chris: And like I said, you know, when we talked, you know, we were under this tremendous pressure.
Chris: So it was a bit of sibling rivalry, to use the term loosely.
Chris: And our guy is now the number one rock producer in the world, literally overnight.
Chris: We were with Butch the night he found out Nevermind went to number one.
Chris: We were having an Italian dinner in Madison, Wisconsin.
Chris: We literally toasted Butch Vic.
Chris: Congratulations, you're the number one producer in the world.
Neil: You know, but then to come back and all of a sudden, you're sort of in Kurt's shadow.
Neil: And I think Billy will recognize, like, Kurt was a talented songwriter.
Neil: He could write songs.
Neil: And there's a respect there for sure, you know.
Neil: But there was that thing of like, I don't, like the expectation of Butch and Billy and the band
Neil: following, like, Nevermind Success to go, your turn then.
Neil: Well, didn't the, I mean, you hinted at this when we started to talk about this.
Neil: But when the band at this point, so Billy's, I know we talked about how he's under pressure.
Neil: Billy's crushed by this point.
Neil: He's, like, there's interviews of him talking about, I think it's the track Today, where he writes that after deciding not to kill himself.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: So he'd written his own eulogy and sold all of his possessions.
Neil: And was essentially like, I'm just not going to go on with life anymore.
Neil: This is it.
Neil: He was not just a passing thought of suicide.
Neil: He was planning, you know, planning this.
Neil: And then Today is the track where he makes that decision.
Neil: He only writes today after deciding not to kill himself.
Neil: And the rest of the band are also in.
Chris: I was going in, making the coffee, answering the phone, the machine, cleaning the tape decks, ordering pizza.
Chris: So it was, it started to build slowly, but I started feeling all this pressure about doing Siamese Dream because people would say to me, oh my God, you're going to do the next Pumpkins record.
Chris: It's going to be huge.
Chris: Especially because Gish had done really well.
Chris: Yep.
Chris: And I didn't like hearing that pressure.
Chris: I sort of had to shut it out.
Chris: And that was one good thing about being in Madison.
Chris: We could be sort of left to our own devices, you know.
Chris: Living in LA or New York probably would have been tougher.
Chris: But I didn't really like it.
Chris: So I just sort of kept my routine, you know.
Chris: I just stuck with recording smart.
Chris: I already had a bunch of bands booked even before Nevermind took off.
Chris: Like a band called The Cosmic Psychos from Australia who were a hoot and really fun.
Chris: I did some more work with Killdozer.
Chris: There was a band called Overwhelming Color Fast, I think was on Caroline Records that came in.
Chris: And I had managers calling saying, you should be recording in New York or coming to LA.
Chris: We can set you up with a room.
Chris: You'll have your own studio.
Chris: You'll only be working with A-list bands.
Chris: You'll have the pick of the chair.
Chris: You can cherry pick any band you want to work with.
Chris: And I was like, I'm happy here at Smart just doing my thing.
Chris: We had done Gish at Smart Studios in Madison.
Chris: We decided we didn't want to do the second album there.
Chris: We thought about going to New York.
Chris: Thought about going to LA.
Chris: But then thought too many record people, too many distractions.
Chris: We considered going to Ardent in Memphis, which I love the studio.
Chris: I'd been in there before but never recorded there.
Chris: And we also flew up to Toronto and looked at some studios in Toronto.
Chris: Okay.
Chris: And then somehow out of the blue, someone suggested Triclops in Atlanta.
Chris: And the reason we liked it was because it had a big tracking room.
Chris: They had a vintage Neve console in there.
Chris: We thought we would be kind of removed from any influence or any bad behavior.
Chris: And a lot of that was because of Jimmy.
Chris: We wanted to keep him on the straight and narrow path because he had some issues back in the day.
Chris: And within two days, I think every drug dealer in LA was making a path through Triclops and back, bringing these little briefcases in and walking out.
Chris: So that kind of all went out the window on the second day.
Chris: Because you can find pretty much whatever you want in any city you go to.
Chris: Yeah.
Chris: You know, but the good thing was we were far removed from the record company.
Chris: And I think that was just good for us to focus.
Chris: You know, we really didn't do anything except go to the studio.
Chris: You know, we would take initially the first three months.
Chris: We would take sometimes a Saturday night off so people could go out and have dinner.
Chris: We would take Sundays off.
Chris: But after about three months into the five months of recording, we realized we were way behind schedule.
Chris: We worked seven days a week.
Chris: I'd go into like 11 or noon and work till two or three in the morning, seven days a week.
Neil: Because you had Jimmy Chamberlain, who was a heroin addict, a fairly significant heroin addict.
Neil: And in the end, you know, post-melancholy, he departed from the band.
Neil: So he wasn't in the band for quite a long time because of that and because of the death of the keyboard player.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Sort of the melancholy era.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: I mean, so that was difficult.
Neil: That was partly the reason why they chose to go and record out of Chicago, out of town.
Neil: So they were kind of hidden away from somewhere.
Neil: But then Billy says that like the drug dealers would just appear.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And then, you know, and then they would take him away.
Neil: But on top of that, James and Darcy were dating.
Unknown:
Neil: So I didn't know this at all.
Neil: I didn't know this bit.
Neil: And then broke up on the road while they were touring Gish.
Neil: So it was the night before the 1992 Reading Festival in the UK.
Neil: Those two split up.
Neil: And then still had to go and function.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: So, you know, the band, as they go into Siamese Dream, they're, I mean, as dysfunctional as it gets.
Neil: I mean, we've talked about this in a bunch of different albums.
Neil: You know, and I'm kind of thinking somewhat here about Fleetwood Mac, that kind of thing.
Unknown:
Neil: You had Fleetwood Mac.
Neil: I mean, Pink Floyd.
Neil: Pink Floyd.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: As well.
Neil: You know, the albums that came up for Guns N' Roses after Appetite.
Neil: Again, that's a dysfunctional, just a very dysfunctional band at that point.
Neil: And it's interesting, isn't it?
Neil: Like, I think you've said in the past that a lot of this stuff is just like mates in a studio, you're just a bunch of mates in a studio making music, right?
Neil: And it's a different, it must be a very different atmosphere, feel more like a nine to five job role, right?
Neil: When you're doing that in an environment that's so, like, combative.
Neil: And everybody's, I don't want to say doesn't want to be there, but, you know, everyone's carrying their own.
Neil: Because often, and, you know, on a slightly different level, I guess, but you see this with projects sometimes.
Neil: I'll kind of get asked to go and look at why a project's not progressing.
Neil: And often it will be personal.
Neil: You know, it's not a technical problem.
Neil: It's a personality kind of problem.
Neil: And usually what happens is that there's always on a team of people, a bunch of people carrying their own baggage, but you need one or two that are not, that can support and cope with the rest.
Neil: And if you have that often, then, you know, things carry on moving forward.
Neil: But like the pumpkins here.
Neil: There's no one.
Neil: Yeah, there's no one.
Neil: You know, Billy's just decided not to kill himself, which is great, obviously, but he's still not, you know, he's still not like sunshine and light kind of thing.
Neil: But the other thing is that, you know, I don't think it's any secret that Billy is a big personality in a musical environment and context.
Neil: And in the sense that he's a visionary.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And, you know, there won't be any compromising.
Neil: There won't be any, like, if you're not in the mood to play the bass, I'm going to play it for you.
Neil: And isn't that what happened?
Neil: Yeah, it was.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And again, reading this, it's, I mean, it's interesting.
Neil: As you read some of the articles about this, it's like, oh, yeah, Billy played all the instruments, right?
Neil: Billy did all the things, played all the instruments.
Neil: And you think, oh, okay.
Neil: You know, fair enough.
Neil: It's Billy's vision.
Neil: And I kind of get that to some degree.
Neil: I think, okay, I kind of get that to some degree.
Neil: But then, how would the other members of the band feel?
Neil: You know, you go in and you work on this stuff together and you perhaps lay down your pieces.
Neil: You go back to the hotel or wherever.
Neil: It was kind of a residential, I think, wasn't it, where they were here.
Neil: So you come back to your room or whatever, or you go and, you know, you go and have a cup of tea.
Neil: And then before you know it, you come back in again.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And Billy's re-recorded your part.
Neil: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Neil: And not told you.
Neil: You know what I mean?
Neil: And it's like, oh, hang on, I didn't play that.
Neil: I just changed.
Neil: And, you know, reading-
Neil: I have to be really careful, you know, because I could quite easily do that.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And it's never in a, like, what you did isn't good enough.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: It's never in a sense of, like, I need to replace the thing that you did.
Neil: It's, I've got an idea right now and I need to capture this idea.
Neil: Yeah, you're not here.
Neil: And you're not here, so I need to do it.
Neil: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Neil: And I really have to, like, rein myself in sometimes that.
Neil: So I know where that comes from.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: So I see that from a, whereas someone else might see that as like, oh, you're just trying to
Neil: take over and be a control freak.
Neil: You're not going to let everyone else have a say.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: You know, from a musical perspective, I try and curb it in other projects and things that
Neil: I do, but certainly from a musical concept, I'm like, I'll just play everything.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And I'll put all the vocals on and I'll do the lot.
Neil: And because, because I, because I can, and I can do it quick.
Neil: But we've talked about this before though.
Neil: It's the vision, isn't it?
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: It's the vision.
Neil: And, you know, I think this is one area, we talked about AI last week.
Neil: And I think this is kind of an area where AI is going to be a really, like, democratizing
Neil: thing where I think there are loads of people out there with a vision.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And they don't have the musical or the artistic or the technical skills to, like, manifest
Neil: that vision.
Neil: So it just doesn't go anywhere.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: But then, but now you don't need to know about how to write code or how to play an instrument
Neil: necessarily.
Neil: You can use AI to do that to a degree.
Neil: You could, you know what I mean?
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: You could use that to get these visions to be, to be there.
Neil: I think, I think it might be good at that.
Neil: That's really interesting though.
Neil: Because I come from the slightly other angle of like, but you're taking away the humanity
Neil: from it, but you're kind of not because you're using it as an assistant.
Neil: And I think we've had this before, isn't it?
Unknown:
Neil: For me, it's the, it's the, it's that, I think like not having a, you know, I think if you
Neil: didn't have a vision and just could like write me an album.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: I don't like that at all.
Neil: No.
Neil: Write me an album like, um, Siamese Dream.
Neil: I don't like that at all.
Neil: But I, I, I do like the idea of somebody being able to say, Hey, look, I've got this idea.
Neil: I've been able to hum a melody or I've got this idea for a, for a, um, uh, you know,
Neil: I've got this idea for a melody and I can play the keyboard, but I want that to be strings
Neil: instead.
Neil: And I want that to be something different.
Neil: And I need, I need you to help me.
Neil: Um, you know, how do I structure this song?
Neil: I've got a verse, I've got this, I want to connect this together, but I don't have the
Neil: skills to know how to do that.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And I like that.
Neil: I, I kind of, that for me is like it's, it's taking a human.
Neil: And like turning them up to 11, if you like, it's kind of, it's a bit like the matrix.
Neil: It's like, you know, I know Kung Fu.
Neil: It's that kind of, Oh, I can play the violin now.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And I like that.
Neil: I think that's really valuable.
Neil: I don't like the, you know, write me a novel.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: I think that's just.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Weak and boring.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: But I do like the idea that somebody could say, do you know what?
Neil: I've got this story in my head.
Neil: I, I, I have got this idea of a character and a story and I kind of know the arc.
Neil: I know exactly how things are going to, going to work together.
Neil: But, but I can't quite get, I can't, I can't get it out.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: I mean, I can't, I don't know.
Neil: There is definitely a place for it there.
Neil: I think.
Neil: I just hope that we find good uses for AI and the slop stops.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Stop the slop.
Neil: Um, where was I going?
Neil: There was, I was going on this, uh, thing.
Neil: We were talking about the difficulties that the band were having at the time.
Neil: Oh yeah.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: So, um, I, so I think, uh, so the, the band being in that super dark place, um, you know,
Neil: Billy's clearly under a huge amount of pressure to produce something.
Neil: Um, and I think it drove some like, well, now I don't seem that bizarre, but at the time
Neil: it seems super weird decisions.
Neil: So, and by that, what I mean is, um, this was recorded to analog tape and the layers in
Neil: this record are phenomenal.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: They are like, just like layer after, especially for the guitar work.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And, uh, you know, there was a bit that I read where Butch said something like they had
Neil: to draw, uh, to draw a diagram of all of the different guitar layers because they were
Neil: getting totally lost with what was where and, and, and, and how that was going to work.
Unknown: Nothing left to say
Chris: And all I've left to do
Chris: Is run away from you
Chris: She let me out
Chris: Down
Chris: Secrets
Neil: I can't keep
Neil: Close your eyes
Neil: And sleep
Unknown: Don't wait up
Unknown: For me
Neil: Hush now
Neil: Don't you speak
Neil: To me
Chris: Wrapped my heart
Chris: In you
Chris: And took my shelter
Chris: In their pain
Chris: The opium
Chris: Of blame
Chris: Is your broken heart
Chris: Heart
Chris: You're home
Chris: So now
Chris: I'm on by myself
Chris: As I've always felt
Chris: Left a decision
Unknown: Left a decision
Unknown:
Unknown: Left a decision
Unknown:
Chris: !
Unknown:
Unknown: !
Neil: !
Unknown:
Neil: !
Unknown:
Neil: Let's kiss goodnight
Chris: Do you want to lose your heart again?
Chris: Do you want to make a burn?
Chris: I feel the promise made up to you
Neil: How bad the hell?
Unknown: I'm all by myself
Neil: Yes, I've always been
Neil: I'll betray myself
Unknown: I've always been
Unknown:
Unknown: I'll betray myself
Chris: I'm all by myself
Unknown: As I've always been
Neil: I'll betray myself
Neil: To anyone
Unknown: To anyone
Unknown: I've never been
Unknown:
Unknown: I've never been
Unknown:
Unknown: I've never been
Unknown:
Unknown: I've never been
Unknown:
Chris: I've never been
Chris: our best effort to write songs that we thought would maybe work in that atmosphere. Disarm,
Chris: it wasn't like there was a song like Disarm on the radio. There wasn't a song like Chairbrock
Chris: on the radio. Today was maybe kind of sort of like other stuff, but it wasn't like,
Chris: you wouldn't say today was like, smells like teen spirit. No, nothing like it.
Chris: We felt outside pressure to make a grunge record and our reaction was to go, we were going to
Chris: not going to make a grunge record. We're going to make a Smashing Pumpkins record, whatever the hell
Chris: that meant. So we went to the nines to figure out a language that was wholly our own, the shoegaze
Chris: influences, whether it was Deep Purple or Sabbath or we went, I mean, we got a ton of shit in reviews
Chris: when Siamese Dream came out because it was overproduced. Well, in 1993 terms, it meant we
Chris: were trying too hard. So of course, I doubled down in interviews and said, no, we were just trying to
Chris: do Boston and Queen, which by the way, is not something you're supposed to say in alternative
Chris: circles. And if I'm going to make a record, I'm going out like Tom Schultz. But we took a lot of
Chris: junk for that because somehow layering guitars was something you weren't supposed to do or using
Chris: strings. And we were criticized for using strings. And I was like, it's Glen Campbell. It's, it's,
Chris: you know, John Paul Jones on the Mellotron on the Zeppel. I mean, what's the difference?
Neil: This ostensibly is like an indie grunge band. Right. Like Nirvana. I mean, it's interesting
Neil: because the guitar work on Neverminds are like quite, quite interesting, I think. But, but it's,
Neil: that's got a bit more produced. Right. But, but none of the other grunge bands were like this.
Neil: No, no, this is like, it was almost orchestrated.
Neil: The obsession. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To the guitar tone and sound and the soundscape that came out of,
Neil: of this record. For me, I think this record sounds phenomenal. I, again, it's one of those records,
Neil: I mean, it's been reissued. It was reissued in 2011. I think they've just redone another reissue
Neil: of the reissue where they changed the, I mean, the history of honestly, bloody record company. So they,
Neil: they reissued in 2011, changed the cover. Yeah. And then reissued in 2024, I think on,
Neil: on high quality vinyl and changed the cover back to the original. Yeah. Yeah.
Neil: And you're like, oh, just get, just stop. Do you know what I mean? Just, there was no,
Neil: and there's no need for any of that. No. That original version that came out
Neil: was great. At best, it needed digitizing. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So just to go and pull
Neil: out all the detail off the analog tape. But yeah, I, I, I don't know. I think the production
Neil: on this was, was phenomenal. And the bit that's interesting is like most of the reviewers
Neil: gushed over it and said it was like the amazing record. I think it sold 6 million copies or something
Neil: like that. So it did pretty well. But there were critics saying that it was overproduced. Yeah.
Neil: It was too produced. Yeah. Now I think you're talking about a time where it was analog. Yeah.
Neil: I mean, it might've been done to click, but I don't, I don't, I don't know. I don't know whether
Neil: this would have been done to click or not. It definitely wasn't. I mean, it doesn't sound.
Neil: Or if it was, it was, it was, it was a click that was played in, if that makes sense. Obviously,
Neil: because it's analog. Right, right, right, right. But they set the tempos for the pumpkins,
Neil: gish, this, because they do, they do quite long jams. Yeah. And there's no chance of holding that to a tempo.
Neil: There's more of a, they are more of a jam band, I think. Yeah. But, but, um, yeah, I don't know.
Neil: It's like for me over, overproduced in, in the early 90s. I don't know whether you can. I mean,
Neil: you, you get, you get that, um, with hysteria, you know, you get the critique from hysteria and
Neil: Mutt Lang. Um, and I, I don't know. I mean, I suppose, I suppose to a degree, but, but to get it to be
Neil: overproduced in this, in this era, you know, this isn't running something through a computer
Neil: over and over and over again. This is recording it over and over and over again. Yeah. Um,
Neil: you know, striving for perfection and only accepting, you know what I mean? Looking,
Neil: just driving for perfection. Yeah. Um, but this, I, this record. There's a lot to say about this,
Neil: the simpler time in terms of tracking as well. It doesn't sound overproduced to me. I mean,
Neil: I, I get that compared to Gish, it probably, yeah, the, the, the, the production sounded different.
Neil: Um, and even to nevermind it's, it's, it's, it's a different, but it paved the way for melancholy
Neil: and melancholy is very produced, you know, it's very, it's taking it to the next level.
Neil: Yeah. I mean, that is a magnum opus. It's constantly referred to as, it's a, it's a, it's a proper move.
Neil: There's two, it's an album of two movements really, you know?
Neil: See this one, this one, this one is one I would put on and listen to. So I'm, I'm kind of a more of a,
Neil: I guess a casual pumpkins fan and like, you know, it's the, it's the best of stuff or is the,
Neil: um, the apple essentials is kind of the one I often will, will listen to for these as albums go. This
Neil: is the one. Yeah. Yeah. Um, melancholy is just too, it's too much. It's like, you know, I really like
Neil: cake, but if it's a cake, that's the size of a car and that for me, that's kind of the reality of it
Neil: for me is that the, um, the, some of the songs are melancholy, are just incredible,
Neil: but as an album end to end. Yeah. It's just too vast. It's overwhelming for me. That's huge as a,
Neil: as a, as a record and the same, there's a couple of albums I really want to do, um,
Neil: in the future that I like that because I really want to do, um, Metallica's load and reload. Yeah.
Neil: Yeah. And I really want to do use your illusion one and two. And the reason is because I, and this
Neil: is a hot, it's not really a hot take. It's kind of a very considered take. Um, I think both of those
Neil: should have been one album. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think there should have been a lot left on the
Neil: cutting room floor for both of those records. Yeah. Um, so I think at some point over the year,
Neil: we'll have to do like those four, like back to back where we kind of go through and talk it through,
Neil: or we'll do like one episode, you know, with the usual illusion and one with the load reload stuff.
Neil: Yeah. Um, but, um, but yeah, cause I think that this just, I don't know. It might just be me.
Neil: Maybe everyone's probably screaming at the thing saying, you idiot. Um,
Neil: it's that favorite album. Well, how dare you the sacrilege? Yeah.
Neil: But I think there's some brilliant, like across all of them. I think there's some epic stuff,
Neil: but there's a lot of skipping for me on both. And all four of those, there's just a huge amount of
Neil: skipping. It's kind of on board already. Yeah. Oh, this is good. I like that. You know what I mean?
Neil: Yeah. Um, so I think that's some point where the, I don't know, I wonder if
Neil: that's where the vision, it gets lost in translation. There's no one there to say,
Neil: are you sure? You know what? There's a thing about this. So this is a really interesting thing.
Neil: Segway because they've, they've obviously just this last weekend, the pumpkins have released
Neil: a reworking of zombie. Oh, with young blood. I really like great. I like, we've talked about this
Neil: before. I like young. I am. And this is probably, again, we'll get canceled for this, but I like young
Neil: blood. I think he's, I think he's the real deal. I really do. And I know lots of old people are
Neil: again, rocking aggressively in their chairs with waving their sticks at me, but I think he's the
Neil: real deal. I love the stuff we did with Aerosmith. Um, I love the stuff we did with Ozzy. Whenever
Neil: you hear him talk, he's, he's a fan. He's a fan of the genre. Yeah. I mean, yeah. He loves music. He
Neil: loves people. He uses auto-tune and he's, he's young and, and, and good looking. And for that,
Neil: really, I think he's, he's really, I think it's the real deal. I think he's a genuine, you know,
Neil: he's a generational David Bowie or, you know, I think he's, you know. Yeah. There's something there,
Neil: isn't there? And I like the, like you say, the cover of this. Yeah. I didn't know this was coming.
Neil: You posted this to me yesterday. I think it was, and I was kind of waiting for it to appear on,
Neil: on the various sites so I could listen. Um, and it's a good, their cover is better. It's bigger,
Neil: heavier. Yeah, it's great. Pumpkins guitars. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bring this to life, I think. And,
Neil: and Billy's voice. It's brilliant. It's produced really nicely. And, but I think,
Neil: so the point I wanted to make is that I, and this is, and I need to be really clear here. Billy,
Neil: Billy is probably my, my single most musical idol in the world. Yeah. Like I absolutely.
Neil: I love you, Billy. Yeah, no, obviously he is. He's, he's the person who, who I, but I think
Neil: he needs a producer that isn't him. He's, he's a producer, right? He's a songwriter. Yeah. He's
Neil: a producer. He's an incredible talent. Uh, but I, I've sort of, I can see where it's coming
Neil: on. Cause I've come across this myself in that you can't really produce your own stuff very well.
Neil: Right. It's really difficult thing to do because you're in that creative sort of
Neil: world. That bubble almost. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and actually someone like Billy,
Neil: like the, the best stuff that I've heard of the pumpkins, there's a little bit of conflict
Neil: there, there's a little bit of tension. There's a little bit of having to work and, and, and work
Neil: with somebody else. And then that kind of friction sort of creates the magic. And I think if Billy
Neil: kind of does his own thing, I'm not sure if the results are kind of as good as when he's really
Neil: being pushed or made to fight for something. And you think Butch, I mean, Butch, uh, famously
Neil: does that. He's quite good at that. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. And I think with that
Neil: young blood one, I don't know if he produced it or not. I assume he didn't. I assume there was a
Neil: separate producer. Yeah. He works with a producer. He's got a really tight team around him. I think.
Neil: Yeah. So, but when it, but when, but, but that collaboration aspects of it obviously
Neil: work really, really well. Like I'd love to hear, you know, what some of these last things that the
Neil: punks have done, like Atom and, um, there's been a couple of albums around there. I wonder what would
Neil: have happened if there was, there was just a little more conflict, a little more fighting, a little
Neil: more, you know, fighting for what it should be rather than just, you know, Billy's kind of
Neil: soul vision, which I'm saying like I'm doing it down. It's all incredible. I'm not, you know,
Neil: but I wouldn't, I wonder if there was something else there, you know, if, if there was that,
Neil: just that little bit of something to fight against. Yeah. Just a bit of, a bit of anger that comes
Neil: through. I do. Um, I was reading, um, the interview with young blood about the, um, the track zombie
Neil: that he did with, with Billy and it wasn't just with Billy. It was with the pumpkins. It's basically
Neil: young blood and that's the band, isn't it? The, uh, the, the collab with him. Um, but he talks about
Neil: the fact that, um, quite a few of the tracks on idols, like he was influenced hugely by the pumpkins.
Neil: Yeah. And, um, you know, and he, and he like kind of waxes lyrical about, um, like the influence of,
Neil: of how, um, how the pumpkins wrote songs and how that influenced him to, to want to go and do things.
Neil: So, uh, it was interesting. He, like, he didn't go out to like the world and his dog. Hey, I want
Neil: to go and do something. He was very like, you know, I love that. I love your band. I want to
Neil: work with you type thing. Yeah. And then, but then he was like, look, Hey, I, um, I don't,
Neil: I forget. And there's a lovely bit where it kind of, it was an email. He emailed Billy basically
Neil: directly. And, and, uh, the wording was something like, Hey, look, this, this needs to be as,
Neil: I would really like this to be as either we do this as personal as possible or we don't do it.
Neil: Yeah. You know, I, I kind of need you. Yeah. I need you to come and take an own and I'll sing
Neil: along with you kind of thing, but I, I want you to, this needs to be a, you know, a, a rethinking
Neil: of this, of this track. Um, so yeah, I don't know. I liked it. I think it was good. Um, I will,
Neil: we'll, we'll be dead by the time we can cover, um, idols on, on this particular show. Um,
Neil: but I, I, yeah, I think, I think it will age quite well. Yeah.
Neil: For, to me, it feels like it's going to age. Good songs on it. Yeah. There's some good songs
Neil: on it. I think that's it. I think you've got, you've got good songs. They'll stand the test of
Chris: time because your songs are rubbish. They won't. I had gone down in the summer before we started the
Chris: record to hang with Billy and he was going to play me demos. And so I picked him up in my car. He hopped in
Chris: and we were driving around suburbs and neighborhoods of Chicago and he'd play a song. I'd hear a little
Chris: bit and then he'd stop it. And they go, Hmm, let me play something else. And I go, what's that called?
Chris: And one of the songs was Rocket. I remember that. And he, and he played maybe five or six things,
Chris: but he'd start playing things and then stop right away. And after about 45 minutes, I was like, you can
Chris: just let it play, man. I'm, I'm not being critical. I just want to hear what you're doing. And he said,
Chris: I'm not done writing. He said, I just realized playing all these songs for you. I'm not happy with where we are
Chris: and I need to write more. And that would have been another six months of hang time. Well, I just waited
Chris: while he kept writing. In that six months, he wrote today, Cherub Rock and Disarm, at least those three.
Chris: And Mayonnaise, I know were all written in that, in that time going up to that, because he just felt like
Chris: he had songs, but he knew that the whole record had to have great songs all the way through and it had to have
Chris: a kind of an epic feel to it. So I was cool, man. I just said, I'll just wait. So we, we had a studio on hold.
Chris: I think it was Triclops and we called and said, Hey, can we put this on hold until we know we have the songs?
Chris: They're like, sure. You know, they were totally cool about it. So we just delayed it six months and it was all for the better.
Neil: I think there are people that are, when you're in, you hear them talk like,
Neil: like Lizzy Hale from Hailstorms. She's so passionate about, I've seen her in tons of interviews.
Neil: And as soon as you get her talking about like Kiss and Aerosmith and, you know, Black Sabbath,
Neil: like she's a super fan. She just loves it. And, and, you know, yeah, absolutely epic. And the same with,
Neil: um, with youngblood, I think you get that same. Um, or I get the same impression.
Chris: The band that made Siamese Dream. We were totally. Like, like this.
Chris: Nirvana. Pearl Jam. They're on, you know, Eddie's and Kurt on the cover of Time.
Chris: MTV. Every time I turned around Kurt and Courtney, my former girlfriend. It was like,
Chris: it was intense. And it was an intense time. It's like making a diamond. The pressure, the moment,
Chris: You know, that's why I always love the famous Eminem song, Lose Yourself.
Neil: Oh, you lose yourself.
Chris: I mean, what a perfect song about the hustle.
Neil: Yes.
Chris: And if you think about it, that song on some level, and I don't want to put words in his mouth because he doesn't need me to do that.
Chris: But my sense of it was he recognized the moment and he owned it.
Chris: I'm here.
Chris: It's my time.
Chris: And that song makes me feel that way every time I hear it.
Chris: Like, that's the game.
Chris: Um, so the guy that made that, like, under all that pressure and duress and the record label were breathing down my neck and Butch Vig trying to get another quadruple platinum album out of a bunch of motley fools.
Chris: The guy sitting there 20 years later, like, yeah, I guess I'll give you a Siamese dream song.
Chris: You're not even in the same zip code.
Chris: You see what I'm saying?
Chris: Yes.
Chris: I can do it.
Chris: And I like to taunt fans with the idea, like, I can make them Siamese dream 2.0.
Chris: I could really do it.
Chris: No problem.
Chris: I'm the guy who did it.
Chris: I have the blueprint up here.
Chris: I know exactly how I did it.
Chris: In fact, I still have the same guitar pedals.
Chris: I can do it.
Chris: But that's not the spirit of it.
Neil: Can we talk about the BBC thing and the track Disarm?
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Because I think that's an interesting story.
Neil: And I did not.
Neil: No.
Neil: I wasn't aware of this at all.
Neil: So one of the singles was Disarm.
Neil: It's a beauty.
Neil: It was.
Neil: That was.
Neil: I think that was the single most song that gave me.
Neil: That was like the gatekeeper for the album.
Neil: Was it?
Neil: The gateway to the album.
Neil: Because it's got.
Neil: It's stringy.
Neil: It's acoustic-y.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And I mean, ostensibly Billy talks about this being the relationship between him and his
Neil: parents and how that wasn't as great as it could be.
Neil: And there's a few bits in there.
Neil: There's a few lyrics in there.
Neil: The killer in me is the killer in you.
Neil: Which was addressed to.
Neil: It's kind of the hook.
Neil: His mum and dad.
Unknown:
Neil: But interestingly, it was banned by the BBC.
Neil: So because of the Jamie Bulger stuff was happening about the same.
Neil: About the same time.
Neil: Which I suppose the American listeners to this probably won't understand the story.
Neil: So it was where effectively a couple of young teenage boys kidnapped a younger boy and actually
Neil: killed them.
Neil: You know, that was the idea, wasn't it?
Neil: It was like children killing other children.
Neil: It was an awful, awful thing.
Neil: It was brutal.
Neil: Now, I remember that.
Neil: I remember the Jamie Bulger stuff on the TV.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: But I don't remember this track being anything to do with it.
Neil: But the BBC banned it.
Neil: But it's a strain, isn't it?
Neil: Because it wasn't written about this.
Neil: It wasn't written in reflection of this.
Neil: It was written years and years and years before.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Yet, because of the association.
Neil: Because of happenstance.
Neil: Not because of any kind of reality.
Neil: And how people might view those lyrics through a different lens.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: It had an impact on whether the song was used or not.
Neil: It was interesting because the band were obviously touring and promotion on the back of Siamese Dream and asked to go on top of the pops, which would have been standard issue stuff.
Neil: Yeah, yeah.
Neil: And then Billy was asked to change the lyrics.
Neil: And Billy being Billy said no.
Neil: And they played a different song.
Neil: But I don't know.
Neil: I just find it fascinating.
Neil: That was something that totally passed me by.
Neil: I did not pick up on that at the time.
Neil: No.
Chris: guitar solo
Chris: And what I choose is my choice
Chris: What's a boy supposed to do?
Neil: The killer in me is the killer in you
Neil: I know
Neil: I'll send this smile
Neil: Oh, what are you?
Unknown: guitar solo
Neil: To save me with a smile
Neil: Leave you like they left me here
Neil: To wither in denial
Neil: The bitterness of one who's left alone
Chris: All I have is burned
Neil: All I have is burned
Neil: I used to be a little boy
Neil: So I'm in my shoes
Neil: What I choose is my voice
Neil: What's a boy supposed to do?
Neil: The killer in me is the killer in you
Neil: My love
Neil: I'll send this smile
Neil: Oh, what are you?
Neil: The killer in me is the killer in you
Unknown: Send this smile
Unknown: Oh, what are you?
Neil: The killer in me is the killer in you
Neil: Send this smile
Neil: Oh, what are you?
Neil: The killer in me is the killer in you
Neil: Send this smile
Neil: It's a beautiful song.
Neil: I love singing that song.
Neil: I love playing and singing it.
Neil: It's such a nice,
Neil: it's all downpicks,
Neil: downward strumming
Neil: for a lot of the song
Neil: and you can just get,
Neil: you can really get into it.
Neil: It's a song you can really get into it
Neil: when you sing it.
Neil: I think it's,
Neil: it's fascinating for me
Neil: that looking back
Neil: at the history of that,
Neil: you know,
Neil: 93,
Neil: 94,
Neil: that somebody somewhere
Neil: would have taken a decision
Neil: like that.
Neil: You know,
Neil: the stuff that was going on.
Neil: I mean,
Neil: the TV shows at the time
Neil: would have been like the word
Neil: who,
Neil: there were like no rules.
Neil: You know,
Neil: it didn't feel to me
Neil: like there were any rules.
Unknown:
Neil: TFI Friday,
Neil: all that sort of stuff.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Maybe TFI Friday was a little bit later,
Neil: but it was that world though,
Neil: wasn't it?
Neil: It was all,
Neil: it was all to play for.
Neil: There was a lot of like chaos,
Neil: really.
Neil: It was.
Neil: I mean,
Neil: and interestingly,
Neil: even though it was banned,
Neil: it was still,
Neil: still made number 11
Neil: in the UK charts.
Neil: It was still,
Neil: it's still.
Neil: So for me,
Neil: because I,
Neil: I,
Neil: I discovered,
Neil: it's weird because I didn't discover
Neil: the pumpkins at the time.
Neil: I was probably a little bit too young.
Neil: It was a bit later for me.
Neil: And I remember hearing
Neil: Melancholy first
Neil: and,
Neil: and not really getting it.
Neil: Oh,
Neil: that's interesting.
Unknown:
Neil: and being like,
Neil: my friend was like,
Neil: so I was like,
Neil: what was I used to at the time?
Neil: Counting Crows,
Neil: Stereophonics.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: I was sort of in that zone,
Neil: but like just come out of this
Neil: Green Day Offspring thing.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And I remember my friend,
Neil: Danny Bennett,
Neil: like show,
Neil: like lending me,
Neil: he lent me,
Neil: it must've been on CD
Neil: or tape,
Neil: I can't remember,
Neil: maybe CD.
Neil: And he lent me Melancholy
Neil: and he went,
Neil: you will absolutely love this.
Neil: This is right up your street.
Neil: You know,
Neil: it's a big album.
Neil: It's an album I love you.
Neil: You will love it.
Neil: And I put it on and went,
Neil: yeah,
Neil: it's all right.
Neil: You know,
Neil: it's,
Neil: Oh,
Neil: no way.
Neil: Yeah,
Neil: yeah,
Neil: yeah.
Neil: It wasn't like,
Neil: wasn't that enamored with it.
Neil: And then,
Neil: because my palate wasn't that.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: My musical palate wasn't that stuff.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: So then suddenly,
Neil: maybe I was a little,
Neil: I was a little bit older.
Neil: I remember being,
Neil: so I actually,
Neil: I remember distinctly,
Neil: I was in year,
Neil: year 11 and I was walking to school
Neil: and it was the Warman,
Neil: it was the Cassette Warman.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And somebody I knew made me a tape,
Neil: it might've even been Danny actually,
Neil: made me a tape of Siamese Dream
Neil: to put on while I was walking to school.
Neil: And I wonder if that's why
Neil: the tearing up happened
Neil: because it just takes,
Neil: it takes you back to,
Neil: I didn't have a particularly amazing time at school.
Neil: It wasn't a good time for me,
Neil: but it was a time
Neil: where I was really exploring myself musically.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And this album,
Neil: you know,
Neil: I was one that I was just,
Neil: just connected.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Totally inside this album.
Neil: So for me,
Neil: those walks to school,
Neil: listening to these songs
Neil: over and over again,
Neil: like Disarm was one of those songs
Neil: where I knew the song
Neil: before I even learned it on guitar.
Neil: Wow.
Neil: You know,
Neil: I didn't,
Neil: you know,
Neil: I sort of knew,
Neil: I'd not even picked up a guitar,
Neil: but I knew every chord,
Neil: every moment,
Neil: every lyric,
Neil: everything inside out
Neil: before I even picked up a guitar
Neil: and tried to play it.
Neil: It's funny,
Neil: isn't it?
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: You don't,
Neil: like those,
Neil: I mean,
Neil: I was the same,
Neil: that kind of age,
Neil: you know,
Neil: I guess between 13 and 17.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: You know,
Neil: the connection to albums
Neil: in that period of time
Neil: is radically different
Neil: than the ones I get now.
Neil: You know,
Neil: there are albums
Neil: that I really like now,
Neil: but I have a radically,
Neil: I suppose the brain
Neil: is in a different state.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: I have a radically
Neil: different connection to them
Neil: and a different memory
Neil: and different feelings.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Yeah,
Neil: absolutely.
Neil: And subsequently
Neil: to falling in love
Neil: with,
Neil: you know,
Neil: Siamese Dream.
Neil: And again,
Neil: not like,
Neil: not really,
Neil: because I had to think about
Neil: if I liked a song,
Neil: I'd learn it
Neil: and I'd sing it
Neil: and I didn't do that with this.
Neil: I didn't.
Neil: Did you not?
Neil: Not really,
Neil: no.
Neil: And I like listening to it
Neil: and I like my relationship
Neil: to be very kind of like,
Neil: you know,
Neil: I didn't really learn these ones.
Neil: I learned all of them
Neil: on Melancholy.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: But with this record,
Neil: it wasn't until later
Neil: that I started trying to sort of
Neil: work them out and stuff.
Neil: Other than Disarm,
Neil: to be fair,
Neil: that one,
Neil: yeah,
Neil: no,
Neil: I did get into that one
Neil: quite quick.
Neil: But anyway,
Neil: subsequently to this,
Neil: that was when
Neil: I'd try Melancholy again
Neil: and then went,
Neil: this is the greatest record
Neil: ever created.
Neil: That's it.
Neil: It's funny.
Neil: And I've never dropped that feeling.
Neil: It's funny when you,
Neil: when you connect to things.
Neil: But it took the,
Neil: it took the gateway
Neil: of Siamese Dream.
Neil: To do it.
Neil: For me to,
Neil: yeah.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Can we talk about the artwork a bit?
Neil: Yeah,
Neil: yeah,
Neil: absolutely.
Neil: So again,
Neil: the story of the,
Neil: there's so many good stories
Neil: on this album
Neil: and the story
Neil: of the cover art.
Neil: The two girls,
Neil: yeah.
Neil: So originally
Neil: it was supposed to be
Neil: completely different.
Neil: So Billy had got
Neil: a totally different idea,
Neil: argued with the record company.
Neil: So it went out on Virgin
Neil: and Virgin and Billy
Neil: argued all the way through
Neil: over the,
Neil: what the cover should be.
Neil: Yeah,
Neil: the cover art.
Neil: And eventually it got to a point
Neil: where we need cover art
Neil: and it wasn't ready.
Neil: So they came up
Neil: with this idea,
Neil: you know,
Neil: the,
Neil: the whole Siamese Dream thing.
Neil: Billy said that it wasn't,
Neil: it's not about
Neil: Siamese Twins.
Neil: It's about this interconnected world,
Neil: this kind of,
Neil: the yin and yang kind of thing.
Neil: It has actually nothing to do
Neil: with Siamese Twins.
Neil: And the idea was that
Neil: they were going to
Neil: have,
Neil: have this,
Neil: the,
Neil: the cover art
Neil: and he kind of planned
Neil: and designed it.
Neil: the two girls on there
Neil: are not conjoined twins.
Neil: They're not even twins.
Neil: No,
Neil: they're just,
Neil: they're not related.
Neil: They'd never met before
Neil: that day.
Neil: It was shot by Melody McDaniel,
Neil: who's like an independent
Neil: photographer.
Neil: But the,
Neil: the lovely thing about it,
Neil: so A,
Neil: it wasn't meant to be the cover
Neil: of the,
Neil: of the album.
Neil: It was kind of a last minute thing
Neil: that was,
Neil: that was changed.
Neil: The twins,
Neil: they're not,
Neil: the twins are not twins
Neil: or conjoined in any way.
Neil: They just like lookalike kids
Neil: that were,
Neil: that were there
Neil: and they were posed
Neil: cheek to cheek.
Neil: It was this kind of,
Neil: you know,
Neil: poetic notion of,
Neil: of duality
Neil: and interconnectedness.
Neil: But then no one knew
Neil: who the twins were.
Neil: No one knew who the girls were.
Neil: So,
Neil: and then,
Neil: I mean,
Neil: the thing about the pumpkins
Neil: that I guess I hadn't really
Neil: realised until I started
Neil: to dig into this,
Neil: there's so much lore to it.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: There's like,
Neil: yeah,
Neil: it just makes,
Neil: makes stuff up.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Whole worlds.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Phenomenal.
Neil: That may or may not be real.
Neil: Yeah.
Unknown:
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And,
Neil: and it was brilliant
Neil: because Billy,
Neil: like Billy,
Neil: like stoked this
Neil: over the,
Neil: over the years.
Neil: And they,
Neil: like,
Neil: they didn't really,
Neil: no,
Neil: it kind of ebbed and flowed
Neil: who the girls,
Neil: who the girls were.
Neil: Um,
Neil: and then,
Neil: and then there was like a,
Neil: a reunion in the late 2000s
Neil: where,
Neil: um,
Neil: Billy posted a tonguing cheek message,
Neil: uh,
Neil: on the band's blog,
Neil: um,
Unknown:
Neil: saying he was looking for the girls
Neil: from the Siamese dream cover
Neil: to try and,
Neil: try and find them.
Neil: Um,
Neil: and then he kind of joked,
Neil: they're not conjoined anymore
Neil: as far as we know.
Neil: Obviously he would have known
Neil: they weren't conjoined
Neil: in the first place.
Neil: Um,
Neil: the bit that's really interesting
Neil: as well from there is he said,
Neil: they had a new bass player,
Neil: uh,
Neil: join them,
Neil: uh,
Unknown:
Neil: Nicole Fiorentino.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And she joined in 2010
Neil: and,
Neil: um,
Neil: uh,
Neil: Billy posted saying that,
Neil: um,
Neil: she was one of the girls
Neil: on the cover
Neil: and that kind of stoked
Neil: this massive kind of thing.
Neil: And,
Unknown:
Neil: you know,
Neil: obviously then people started
Neil: to realize that like mathematically
Neil: that wasn't possible,
Neil: but it stirred up this thing.
Neil: Yeah.
Unknown:
Neil: It stirred up this huge kind of,
Neil: uh,
Neil: internet driven,
Neil: driven,
Neil: uh,
Neil: thing.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Um,
Neil: like some sort of serendipity thing.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And,
Neil: but then,
Neil: um,
Neil: again,
Neil: so,
Neil: um,
Neil: uh,
Neil: what gets really interesting
Neil: is then as they were going out
Neil: on the,
Neil: uh,
Neil: tour for,
Neil: and we go through my notes here.
Neil: Um,
Neil: yeah.
Neil: So,
Neil: so as they were going out
Neil: on,
Neil: uh,
Neil: on the,
Neil: uh,
Neil: Oh,
Neil: so bright,
Neil: a shiny and so bright reunion tour,
Neil: um,
Neil: the two girls are now women in their thirties,
Neil: uh,
Neil: sat on a couch with Billy Corgan and announced the tour together.
Neil: So now we're kind of,
Neil: yeah.
Neil: And it kind of,
Neil: the serendipity of,
Neil: of,
Neil: of that.
Neil: Um,
Neil: it's a nice thing for the fans,
Neil: isn't it?
Neil: It is.
Neil: It's a really nice thing for the fans.
Neil: I do.
Neil: I,
Neil: you know,
Neil: I mean,
Neil: I love,
Neil: I love album art and I love the,
Neil: uh,
Neil: the story with this one.
Neil: I love the fact that it's,
Neil: it's a bit like,
Neil: you know,
Neil: you,
Neil: we started with nevermind too,
Neil: right?
Neil: The kind of,
Neil: you know,
Neil: the,
Neil: the baby on the front and then grew up and sued Nirvana for,
Neil: you know,
Neil: a few,
Neil: a few times,
Neil: like a few pops.
Neil: Keep suing.
Unknown:
Neil: Um,
Neil: yeah,
Neil: but yeah,
Neil: no,
Neil: I liked that.
Neil: I think that was really,
Neil: really cool.
Neil: The reissue has like a red cover.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: The original was like a white.
Neil: Yeah.
Unknown:
Neil: the background was kind of white and then it's quite bleached out.
Unknown:
Neil: And then the reissue one goes red and then the re reissue is now gone back to being white.
Neil: I prefer the white one.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: If I'm honest,
Neil: I think at the time there was the,
Neil: it was this kind of tear garden by kaleidoscope.
Neil: I think,
Neil: I think the album's called,
Neil: but it was working on a few different concepts at the time,
Neil: which may or may not have turned into other things,
Neil: but the,
Neil: the look was very psychedelic and they really kind of leaned into that,
Neil: that sort of thing.
Neil: So it might be,
Neil: it might be that the artwork that they,
Neil: they had for melancholy was a sort of reflection of that.
Neil: Oh,
Neil: a little bit as well.
Neil: Um,
Neil: yeah,
Neil: I did like,
Neil: you mentioned Oh,
Neil: So Bright.
Neil: Oh,
Neil: shiny.
Neil: So bright.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Oh,
Neil: shiny.
Neil: So bright.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: The,
Neil: the,
Neil: the EP.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Nice and Malta.
Neil: That's on that.
Neil: It's one,
Neil: I think it's one of their best.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Absolutely gorgeous.
Neil: That one is.
Neil: It's,
Neil: they're a funny band for me.
Neil: They,
Neil: they have,
Neil: um,
Neil: and there are a few other bands out there.
Neil: Counting Crows are the same.
Neil: And they've got,
Neil: um,
Neil: these massive,
Neil: they've got,
Neil: they've got this like huge catalog of,
Neil: of hit singles.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Um,
Neil: but actually,
Neil: you,
Unknown:
Neil: I'm not,
Neil: not that they're not great songs cause they are,
Neil: but it's the,
Neil: it's the album tracks that kind of,
Neil: that they grow on you.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And they're the ones that for me become the favorites.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: If that makes sense.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: So,
Neil: but they,
Neil: they have a,
Neil: yeah,
Neil: I mean,
Neil: we went to,
Neil: so we saw them at download,
Neil: um,
Neil: the pumpkins and it was,
Neil: uh,
Neil: for me,
Neil: it was incredible.
Neil: Like a,
Neil: uh,
Neil: seeing the pumpkins headline download,
Neil: which,
Neil: you know,
Neil: they're not a heavy metal band to see them do that was great.
Neil: And to see the reaction from the crowd was really,
Neil: really cool.
Unknown:
Neil: Yeah.
Unknown:
Neil: but then their set was just like,
Neil: it was epic.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And you forget they've got such,
Neil: and again,
Neil: like counting crows are like this as well for me,
Neil: but you kind of almost forget.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: The,
Neil: the,
Neil: these songs are theirs.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: You know,
Neil: they're like,
Neil: Oh God,
Neil: that one.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: They're a phenomenal band.
Neil: I have such a strong.
Neil: Yeah.
Unknown:
Neil: and to be,
Neil: yeah.
Neil: I mean,
Neil: the one for me was to share the lineup that weekend to be on that same bill was just like,
Unknown:
Neil: cause you were playing.
Neil: Of course.
Neil: Yeah.
Unknown:
Neil: Yeah.
Unknown:
Neil: Very,
Neil: very cool.
Neil: You're on the t-shirt.
Neil: Yes.
Neil: You are on the t-shirt on the back of the download t-shirts.
Neil: It's got every band that played.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And you're,
Neil: you're,
Neil: we're a bit smaller than the pumpkins,
Chris: but it's relative,
Chris: isn't it?
Chris: It's relative.
Chris: If you go back a couple of years,
Chris: we met on a Wisconsin street,
Chris: he's butch,
Chris: fig the nobody.
Chris: And we're the smashing pumpkins.
Chris: We're nobodies.
Chris: So in that short time,
Chris: we have a major label deal.
Chris: We have the biggest selling independent album of all time.
Chris: Now he's butch fig the big rock producer.
Chris: It was like,
Chris: how do we navigate,
Chris: right?
Chris: This new thing.
Chris: I think the way we navigated it was,
Chris: we went and made Siamese dream together.
Chris: And I think,
Chris: I'm trying to put this in a way that would translate in this context.
Chris: I think Butch
Chris: loves us and,
Chris: and loved us,
Chris: loves us.
Chris: And I think the way he repaid his love to us was,
Chris: I'm going to make sure you guys get that opportunity.
Chris: I'm going to go all the way.
Chris: It makes him emotional because I get it now in a way as an adult that I wouldn't have as a child.
Chris: I'm going to give you everything I have,
Chris: including the gravitas of my buzz.
Chris: I'm going to make sure that the pumpkins get across the line too.
Chris: And not turn you into Nirvana.
Chris: Let the pumpkins be the pumpkins.
Chris: It's very emotional to me when I look back on it now,
Chris: because I realize he did us a good deed in that.
Chris: Because I can't imagine who was blowing up his phone after that record.
Chris: Butch,
Chris: going into that bunker with us at Triclops and spending that five months of
Chris: hair pulling,
Chris: arguing,
Chris: and making that crazy record
Chris: was his way of showing fidelity to
Chris: pumpkins and,
Chris: in particular, me.
Chris: Because we had a very
Chris: strong,
Chris: symbiotic relationship as producers.
Chris: You know,
Chris: I influenced him.
Chris: He definitely influenced me.
Chris: Not everybody likes it when I talk about my influence in that particular way,
Chris: but I'm a producer.
Chris: I mean,
Chris: why shouldn't I talk about it that way?
Chris: If I was just the producer of the Smashing Pumpkins,
Chris: nobody would have a problem with what I'm saying.
Chris: It's not that I want to take credit.
Chris: Kurt was,
Chris: you know,
Chris: easily the most talented person in our class.
Chris: It's not a problem for me to say that.
Chris: But it was weird to be in a situation where
Chris: your guy,
Chris: is now this other guy,
Chris: and you're watching him navigate fame,
Chris: money,
Chris: pressure,
Chris: and then trying to ameliorate that back into the Pumpkins world,
Chris: which was very specific.
Chris: And we had a very specific relationship.
Chris: And we weren't the,
Chris: we weren't the type of band that was going to act different because now it's Butch Vick.
Chris: We didn't give a shit.
Chris: We weren't going to treat Butch any different because he was Butch Vick.
Chris: We were going to still do what we were going to do.
Chris: And then by extension,
Chris: and not to overly belabor it,
Chris: he and Jimmy had a very,
Chris: and continue to have,
Chris: Jimmy and Butch just worked together on something recently.
Chris: So I think Butch's side project thing he did.
Chris: Jimmy and Butch have a very intense symbiotic relationship.
Chris: Probably even more intense than,
Chris: definitely a drummer thing.
Chris: Butch and I is more of a producer,
Chris: visionary,
Chris: his version versus my version.
Chris: But it's a good,
Chris: it's a good combo.
Chris: And it,
Chris: and it,
Chris: and it went on to be important for both of us.
Chris: But the thing between him and Jimmy is more like,
Chris: it's like brothers or something.
Chris: They're,
Chris: they're,
Chris: they're bound.
Neil: Shall we talk about some facts?
Neil: Facts!
Neil: I'll go through,
Neil: I'll go through the blog and pick up some facts.
Neil: So if this album is called Siamese Dream,
Neil: it's got nothing to do with Siamese Twins.
Neil: No.
Neil: Which,
Neil: they,
Neil: they were a dreamscape band though.
Neil: Like if you get,
Neil: she's quite dreamy sounding.
Unknown:
Neil: Not so much on this because they had more songs.
Neil: Although saying that,
Neil: it is over an hour long and there aren't many songs on it.
Neil: 62 minutes,
Neil: 13 songs.
Neil: You see that for you,
Neil: that's a long album,
Neil: isn't it?
Neil: It's hard work.
Neil: No,
Neil: it's good.
Neil: I have to be honest.
Neil: This is one,
Neil: some albums feel long.
Neil: This doesn't.
Neil: No.
Neil: This doesn't feel like a long album.
Neil: It doesn't feel like an hour at all.
Neil: No,
Neil: it doesn't.
Neil: I think a lot of that is the hooks and the melody and the song structure that,
Neil: that,
Neil: that we've got through it.
Neil: Released in the United States,
Neil: July 27th,
Neil: 1993.
Neil: Released on Virgin records.
Neil: It was their first record on a big proper record label.
Neil: And Billy famously banged heads with Virgin almost throughout the entire process.
Unknown:
Neil: Billy bangs heads with all labels.
Neil: I think.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: He did not.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: It's interesting.
Unknown:
Neil: and again,
Neil: and I might get this wrong.
Neil: You have to correct me,
Neil: but I think,
Neil: is it Cherub Rock,
Neil: which is about that indie scene stuff and like Billy's kind of like,
Neil: displeasure,
Neil: if you like,
Neil: and how that stuff all kind of hangs together.
Neil: But I think,
Neil: so he,
Neil: he was like fighting with the indie scene that he came from and the,
Neil: you know,
Neil: the,
Neil: the machine,
Neil: big record machine as well.
Neil: So like he didn't really like anybody.
Neil: No,
Neil: no,
Neil: but I think that's where,
Neil: you know,
Neil: you get the,
Neil: you get the sense that he's kind of a very,
Neil: a very passionate songwriter,
Neil: but he's,
Neil: there's a,
Neil: there's an aspect of being a kind of bit of a lone wolf.
Neil: Like he wants to,
Neil: he wants to do it his way.
Neil: He's got his vision,
Neil: hasn't he?
Neil: It's really articulate.
Neil: I think he's really,
Neil: he comes across incredibly well at interview.
Neil: And he interviews other people well as well.
Neil: Yes.
Neil: Yeah.
Unknown:
Neil: Yeah.
Unknown:
Neil: Yeah.
Unknown:
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: I love his podcast.
Neil: I don't know.
Neil: There's a lot of music podcasts that I struggle with.
Neil: I love his.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: So good.
Neil: Really,
Neil: really good.
Neil: If you've not checked that out,
Neil: it's worth checking him out because he's,
Neil: um,
Neil: he's nearly as good as we are,
Neil: but no,
Neil: he's,
Neil: I love his podcast.
Neil: It's really cool.
Neil: Um,
Neil: it recorded December 92 to March 93 at Triclops sound studios in Marietta,
Neil: Georgia,
Neil: chosen,
Neil: um,
Neil: largely,
Neil: uh,
Neil: because they wanted to,
Neil: um,
Neil: get out of the way.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And,
Neil: and they kind of want to get drugs out of the system and stuff.
Neil: So it was,
Neil: there was a lot of that.
Neil: Can I just comment on something here?
Neil: There was a,
Neil: a,
Neil: a film called view for you that I believe was out on VHS.
Neil: And it was like one of these things where it was sort of,
Neil: I think it was Siamese dream era and a little bit after.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And they were capturing the experience of the band.
Neil: Um,
Neil: and,
Neil: but also kind of,
Neil: it's got a few live bits on there.
Neil: I wonder if it was before Siamese dream.
Neil: It might've been between,
Neil: I don't know where,
Neil: where it fits into the,
Neil: into the timeline.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: But,
Neil: um,
Neil: it might've been afterwards.
Neil: It might've been between Siamese dream and,
Neil: and melancholy.
Neil: But anyway,
Neil: the point I want to make is that you can see the tension in the band.
Neil: Oh,
Neil: really?
Neil: I was watched it thinking,
Neil: oh,
Neil: they're just kind of being ironic and a bit.
Unknown:
Neil: But actually the,
Neil: you know,
Neil: like it's,
Neil: it's straight up.
Neil: They kind of don't really get on.
Neil: They're not mesh.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Not banding.
Neil: Um,
Neil: not banding,
Neil: not banding.
Neil: Singles.
Neil: We had Cherub Rock today,
Neil: disarm and rocket.
Neil: All of which were just like bloody massive.
Neil: I think they were all just like phenomenal,
Neil: um,
Neil: produced by Butch Vig,
Neil: who they did gish with,
Neil: who had just come off the back of Nirvana.
Neil: So at the time,
Neil: I mean,
Neil: context wise,
Neil: this is like,
Neil: you know,
Neil: no,
Neil: nevermind was the biggest album on the planet.
Neil: Nirvana with the biggest band on the planet at the time.
Neil: And Butch was the biggest producer on the planet at the time.
Neil: Um,
Neil: but essentially,
Neil: um,
Neil: stole Billy's guitar sound for Nirvana.
Neil: Um,
Neil: and then it kind of felt like,
Neil: I mean,
Neil: you see that in some of the interviews where,
Neil: uh,
Neil: Butch kind of did them a favor.
Neil: It was like,
Neil: you know,
Neil: lending some of his,
Neil: um,
Neil: now,
Neil: uh,
Neil: gravitas,
Neil: if,
Neil: if you like,
Neil: back to the,
Neil: back to the pumpkins.
Neil: Um,
Neil: which I think is really,
Neil: I don't know,
Neil: it's really interesting.
Neil: I think,
Neil: um,
Neil: film and media use.
Neil: Um,
Neil: yeah,
Neil: today's been used a lot,
Neil: hasn't it?
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: So,
Neil: um,
Neil: uh,
Neil: so it was used in the Watchmen 2009.
Neil: Um,
Neil: so that was the track today.
Neil: Um,
Neil: which yeah,
Neil: is,
Neil: uh,
Neil: I'm going out actually.
Neil: Yeah,
Neil: it's interesting.
Neil: Um,
Neil: and then,
Neil: uh,
Neil: there was another film Salto Al Versailles 1995 features disarm,
Neil: um,
Neil: Netflix series beef,
Neil: which uses today.
Neil: Uh,
Neil: it was,
Neil: you know,
Neil: MTV,
Neil: uh,
Neil: babies and butthead and stuff.
Neil: Um,
Neil: video games as well.
Neil: It was in Guitar Hero 3,
Neil: like everything was in Rock Band.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: People love playing.
Neil: I remember playing those kinds of things with,
Neil: with the Wii.
Neil: Um,
Neil: which is,
Neil: yeah,
Neil: interesting.
Neil: Um,
Neil: there was an,
Neil: uh,
Neil: a TV series called Paradise City,
Neil: which I've not seen.
Neil: Um,
Neil: I keep,
Neil: I keep seeing,
Neil: it keeps coming up when we're doing research and stuff.
Neil: Um,
Neil: but they,
Neil: the band in there play a cover of the track disarm.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Uh,
Neil: which is interesting.
Neil: Um,
Neil: and then in the,
Neil: we're in these blogs,
Neil: we always do five things,
Neil: uh,
Neil: five things that,
Neil: um,
Neil: that you might not know.
Neil: Um,
Neil: we've covered some already,
Neil: but the,
Neil: the,
Neil: the band was basically like totally dysfunctional at the beginning of making this record.
Neil: So Billy's in a really dark place.
Neil: Um,
Neil: you've got the band having breakups and then,
Neil: and then,
Neil: um,
Unknown:
Neil: you know,
Neil: the,
Neil: the impact of heroin.
Neil: Um,
Neil: Billy Corgan played almost every guitar and bass part on the album and the whole,
Neil: whole thing,
Neil: which is,
Neil: uh,
Neil: which is nuts.
Neil: Um,
Neil: the track space boy,
Neil: um,
Neil: it's about his brother.
Neil: We haven't covered this.
Neil: It's about his half brother.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: It's,
Neil: it's really about his half brother who was born.
Neil: Uh,
Neil: with,
Neil: uh,
Neil: developmental disabilities,
Neil: uh,
Neil: mild cell,
Neil: cerebral palsy and Tourette's.
Neil: Um,
Neil: and Billy was like,
Neil: uh,
Neil: really protective of him.
Neil: So in the track space boy,
Neil: he's kind of,
Neil: uh,
Neil: writing about him being from another planet almost and trying to,
Neil: trying to find a home.
Neil: So,
Neil: um,
Neil: beautiful song.
Neil: That is funny about that song because it's got this kind of like melotron strings.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Sound on it.
Neil: And I believe it was that it was the,
Neil: it was the plane with the melotron strings on that song.
Neil: And that's kind of way,
Neil: which led to perhaps the intro of the melancholy album,
Neil: which carries that,
Neil: that,
Neil: that melotron strings,
Neil: string sound became quite a signature kind of pumpkin.
Neil: Yeah.
Unknown:
Neil: Yeah.
Unknown:
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And I wonder if,
Neil: I wonder if that was sort of the first,
Neil: you know,
Neil: the first,
Neil: the first impetus of,
Neil: of that instrument.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Interestingly,
Neil: it's a little bit out of tune.
Neil: Like if you listen to it,
Neil: I think it's slightly flat.
Neil: I don't think Butch will allow you to say that.
Neil: I can't imagine,
Neil: I can't imagine Butch allowing it.
Neil: It might've been to do with the tape speed and stuff like that.
Neil: So it wasn't to,
Neil: it was no one's performance or play and it was,
Neil: but there's something,
Neil: there's something about melotron,
Neil: and it's used,
Neil: it's used purposefully where it's just,
Neil: it's very,
Neil: very,
Neil: very slightly kind of just slightly sharp or flat.
Neil: It creates a kind of texture,
Neil: a slightly unsettling kind of ambience.
Neil: It's interesting as well.
Neil: That's really cool.
Unknown:
Neil: And I've just ruined that song for everybody now.
Neil: Cause everyone's going to go and listen to it.
Neil: Oh,
Neil: it's out of tune.
Neil: Um,
Neil: uh,
Neil: so,
Neil: uh,
Neil: yeah.
Neil: And then the,
Neil: uh,
Neil: we'll talk about the song mayonnaise.
Neil: Um,
Neil: it was kind of just made up,
Neil: um,
Neil: spelled incorrectly.
Neil: And,
Neil: um,
Neil: Billy,
Neil: I mean,
Neil: you told me this,
Neil: that Billy basically said that,
Neil: um,
Neil: he spent more time,
Neil: uh,
Neil: justifying the name of the song than it took to write the song,
Neil: which I think is interesting.
Neil: It's a great song.
Neil: We're going to close with that one actually.
Neil: Pavement.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: They wrote a diss track about the pumpkins,
Neil: basically saying that they were like boring and a bit point.
Neil: Um,
Neil: and we,
Neil: and,
Neil: and so Billy,
Neil: Billy,
Neil: the band,
Neil: uh,
Neil: the pumpkins were headlining Lollapalooza and pavement were reportedly on the bill.
Neil: And then Billy was like,
Neil: if they're playing,
Neil: we're not playing.
Neil: So he got them kicked off the,
Neil: kicked off the bill.
Neil: Um,
Neil: I've got pavement kicked off.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Oh,
Neil: wow.
Neil: I think that's really,
Neil: I think that's really interesting.
Neil: Um,
Neil: I said,
Neil: just be nice to people.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Need to be,
Neil: you don't need to do all that.
Neil: Do you,
Neil: um,
Neil: Courtney love.
Neil: Did you read that?
Neil: Courtney love claimed that all of the songs on Simon's dream are written about her,
Neil: except for the one that was written about his brother.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: I just,
Neil: yeah.
Neil: Billy said that there were actually a lot of the songs were written about his,
Neil: the,
Neil: the girl he'd split it with just be,
Neil: just before that.
Neil: Um,
Neil: but yeah,
Neil: I don't know.
Neil: I,
Neil: I do,
Neil: I do love Courtney loves ability to like,
Neil: just,
Neil: it's all about me.
Unknown: Yeah.
Neil: That's what it's all about.
Neil: Um,
Neil: and I think that's it.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: So I've already talked about remasters and all of that stuff.
Neil: The original sounds,
Neil: they're good.
Neil: There's no point remastering it.
Neil: But if you look at,
Neil: listen on the social medias,
Neil: I think the only version you get now is the 2011 remaster with the red cover.
Neil: Um,
Neil: and again,
Neil: it's one of the things that annoys me because why can I not go and listen to the original version that annoys me massively.
Neil: So you have to have the original is why you should buy copies of music.
Neil: I think that you can listen to the version that you like.
Neil: Um,
Neil: although I have to say the,
Neil: uh,
Neil: the 2011 version did come with a bunch of demos and rough mixes,
Neil: um,
Neil: like session material and old versions and,
Neil: and other bits and pieces and some life stuff.
Neil: So it was not all terrible,
Neil: um,
Neil: but,
Neil: um,
Neil: I don't like it when they pull the original versions,
Neil: uh,
Neil: from,
Neil: from there.
Neil: Um,
Neil: and that's it really.
Neil: That,
Neil: that is all the facts that I got for this one.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: I'm factored out now.
Neil: I think the,
Neil: the,
Neil: one of the things I want to just say before we,
Neil: before we start winding up and,
Neil: uh,
Neil: is,
Neil: is in particularly,
Neil: um,
Neil: Jimmy Chamberlain's drumming on this record is,
Neil: is,
Neil: is exquisite throughout.
Neil: He,
Neil: he,
Neil: the thing is with,
Neil: with,
Neil: with Jimmy is he plays the drums like an instrument and he arranges drum parts like they're an instrument.
Neil: And that sounds ridiculous,
Neil: but I mean,
Neil: the way he uses high hats and symbols may not be considered a conventional way of using those things in the sense of things.
Neil: He uses them to speak.
Neil: That's the only way I can say he uses,
Neil: the drums are his voice.
Neil: Like a conversation.
Unknown:
Neil: Yeah,
Neil: absolutely.
Neil: And he,
Neil: and he,
Neil: and he treats the drums as his method of communicating to the,
Neil: to the world.
Neil: I think like a thing,
Neil: a story,
Neil: an idea,
Neil: a concept because he does it quite,
Neil: it's quite,
Neil: I think,
Neil: I don't think like a jazz background or something,
Neil: but there's something about the way that he plays that is,
Neil: um,
Neil: mesmerizing.
Neil: I think it's the only word I can use to describe it,
Neil: but you,
Neil: but it's like the drumming itself sucks you into the smashing pumpkins.
Neil: I'd agree.
Neil: There is something like,
Neil: like super delicate about the way he plays,
Neil: but then,
Neil: but then there's this like explosion of,
Neil: of energy and it's just,
Neil: yeah,
Neil: it's this,
Neil: yeah,
Neil: I would agree.
Neil: There is something really,
Neil: I wouldn't say really special.
Neil: It's like,
Neil: it's really unique about the drumming to,
Neil: to this record.
Neil: I,
Neil: you know,
Neil: I've only ever known him from the Jimmy Chamberlain complex,
Neil: I think it's called,
Neil: which is a solo stuff,
Neil: which is quite jazzy to be fair.
Neil: And then this stuff that he's done with the pumpkins.
Neil: I don't know if he's kind of done lots of other stuff.
Neil: I assume he will have done,
Neil: but,
Neil: um,
Neil: he,
Neil: I can't imagine,
Neil: I can't imagine if he'd fit on other stuff because of the way he plays.
Neil: He doesn't play like a standard drummer.
Neil: I can't see if I could put it,
Neil: you know.
Neil: I wonder if,
Neil: um,
Neil: he would,
Neil: I think,
Neil: I think he could play on anything,
Neil: but he would make it sound like the smashing pumpkins.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: There's that lovely thing where they,
Neil: you know,
Neil: in Guns N' Roses,
Neil: uh,
Neil: so the,
Neil: obviously Axl took the Guns N' Roses name and started to do Chinese democracy.
Neil: And the rest of the band had got nothing to do for a bit.
Neil: And they were,
Neil: they were kicking around in LA trying to figure out what to do.
Neil: And it was about the same time that Sebastian Bach had been kicked out of,
Neil: uh,
Neil: Skid Row.
Neil: And they all knew each other.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: So they were like,
Neil: come down.
Neil: I mean,
Neil: this is the best thing ever.
Neil: Like Seb's voice is phenomenal.
Neil: And we've got the best band.
Neil: There is a no brainer here.
Neil: This is going to be the best thing ever.
Neil: And it sounded like,
Neil: like,
Neil: uh,
Unknown:
Neil: uh,
Neil: I forget what they called it,
Neil: but,
Neil: but essentially they said it,
Neil: it literally sounded like someone took Guns N' Roses and Skid Row and mash them together.
Neil: Right.
Neil: And that's what it's,
Neil: and like,
Neil: no,
Neil: that's not what we,
Neil: do you want me?
Neil: It didn't sound like an,
Neil: it didn't sound like his own thing.
Neil: It sounded like,
Neil: like,
Neil: like Seb's voice made it sound like,
Neil: like Skid Row.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And like,
Neil: you know,
Neil: Axl's,
Neil: uh,
Neil: solos and stuff made it sound like Guns N' Roses.
Neil: Um,
Neil: and it's interesting.
Neil: I do,
Neil: like,
Neil: I do wonder if,
Neil: if we,
Neil: if you did get Jimmy Chamberlain and it would,
Neil: do you know what I mean?
Neil: It would make any band sound more like,
Neil: um,
Neil: well,
Neil: there's a couple of albums that Jimmy didn't play on with the pumpkins and I,
Neil: you know,
Neil: I can tell,
Neil: like,
Neil: yeah,
Neil: it'd be interesting to see what he would do with those records.
Neil: Drummers are,
Neil: you get this with Slayer as well with,
Neil: with the ones that have got,
Neil: um,
Unknown:
Neil: you know,
Neil: they,
Neil: they've got a couple of different,
Neil: uh,
Neil: drummers,
Neil: they've got Dave Lombardo,
Neil: uh,
Neil: and then Paul Bostaff,
Neil: um,
Neil: and they're both phenomenal drummers,
Neil: but there's a,
Neil: there's a different,
Neil: very different energy.
Neil: Yeah.
Unknown:
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: No,
Neil: for sure.
Neil: For sure.
Neil: Right.
Neil: Play mayonnaise then.
Neil: And then we'll talk about next week.
Neil: Sweet.
Neil: treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury treasury
Neil: To almost be here
Neil: Cool enough to not quite see it
Neil: Tomorrow
Chris: Pick your pocket full of sorrow
Chris: Run away with me tomorrow
Chris: Tomorrow
Neil: Time
Neil: Ease the pain somehow
Neil: Feel the setting well
Neil: Now I know
Neil: Where our secrets go
Neil: Send your heart to all my dearies
Neil: When your love is so, so dreary
Neil: Dream
Neil: I'm moving to the straight and narrow
Neil: While the harlots of my fellows
Neil: Scream
Neil: And I'll find the way I can
Chris: I will
Neil: Try to understand
Neil: The way I can
Unknown: The way I can
Neil: I will
Unknown: I can
Chris: I can
Unknown:
Chris: I can
Unknown:
Chris: I can
Unknown:
Chris: I can
Chris: Make the years I'm missing
Chris: All the time can't be given
Chris: Bow
Neil: Shut my mouth and strike the demons
Neil: Cursed you and your reasons
Neil: Out of end and out of season
Neil: Out of love and out of feeling
Neil: So bad
Neil: When I can't
Neil: I will
Neil: Most to find the place
Unknown: When I can't
Unknown: I will
Chris: Cruel enough to not quite see it
Neil: Told enough to always be this
Neil: Always old, I'm always near this
Neil: No more promise, no more sorrow
Neil: No longer will I follow anybody here
Neil: I just want to be me
Unknown: I just want to be me
Neil: Where I can
Neil: I will
Neil: Try to understand
Neil: The way I can
Neil: I will
Chris: You look back and you don't realize how people, whether it's the hand of God or something,
Chris: they just, they add something that's so magical but you can't, you couldn't put your finger on it.
Chris: Butch would go home and we would stay for a couple hours and just jam on riffs and just play music and just talk about what was great about, I don't know, Ian Pace or something.
Chris: Sometimes you just need somebody who's not in your orbit, who's not on your weird death trip, who can say, hey, have some fun, lighten up, it's good, I like what you're doing.
Chris: Or come in and say, I like what you guys are doing, a little bit of confidence, you know, that goes a long way, especially to a young musician, sometimes you need, because we were very much, particularly with Butch, we were in that sort of paternalistic relationship.
Chris: Butch was our first real producer, so Butch was like dad.
Neil: So we've moved from 10 degrees to 14 degrees since we've been here.
Neil: Honestly, we haven't talked about it today, we've not gone off-piste. We've been on, I don't think we've done, we've not gone off-piste at all.
Neil: No, hardly ever.
Neil: No tangents, no tangents.
Neil: No, no, no.
Neil: Very focused, very good.
Neil: But I started today, so I volunteer at the local park run.
Neil: So for our American colleagues, what happens is here in the UK, on a Saturday morning at 9am, pretty much every park in the country, you can just turn up and run 5k.
Neil: And it's like a timed 5k thing, and it's really cool.
Neil: So, in fact, if you're interested in that, if you're in the UK and you want to do fitnessy things, that's a cool thing to do, right?
Neil: Because you can walk, you know, you don't have to be particularly fast.
Neil: There are fast people there, slow people there.
Neil: People walk, people take their dogs.
Neil: It's just a cool way to get out and do something good.
Neil: I went there this morning and I opened my app, my weather app.
Neil: I was the run director today, so I was in charge, so I had to get up early.
Neil: And I got out of my app and it said, minus 2 feels like minus 8.
Neil: And all of a sudden, you know, if I hadn't looked at the app, I knew it was cold, right?
Neil: And then I looked at it and as soon as I felt this, like all of the heat just leave my body.
Neil: And I was like, oh my God, this is so cold.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And then as I did that, I faffed around there for a few hours and then came here.
Neil: And I've not warmed up.
Neil: I've never really felt the cold until the last couple of years.
Neil: And now it's terrible.
Neil: I'm so worse with it now.
Neil: Like when I get home, I'll have a heated blanket.
Neil: I'll have a double heated blanket that lives on the sofa.
Neil: We have one on each, like the double sofas.
Neil: And I will just wrap myself in that for like half an hour until I get warm like a sausage roll.
Neil: Warm up.
Neil: Yeah, it's mad, isn't it?
Neil: The one time he was doing the, the YMCA did this thing called sleep out.
Neil: Oh, I remember seeing you do that.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: I wanted to do that with you.
Unknown:
Neil: It was rubbish.
Neil: And then just thought, I'm not doing it.
Neil: I really wanted to, but I know that.
Neil: But it makes you think, you know, like when the cold's in your bones and that, you know,
Neil: you can't get warm again.
Neil: You can't.
Neil: It's, it's, there's one that you sleep in like a churchyard.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: So we were sleeping on these kind of like having a box on a, you know, graveyard thing.
Neil: And, oh God.
Neil: And there was rain in and it was freezing cold.
Neil: It's definitely an age thing.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Like for me, I remember being in, like, I remember being 20 and I ran from Meacham to Ashby,
Neil: which is about five miles.
Neil: And it was minus five.
Neil: It snowed while we were in the pub.
Neil: It was New Year's Eve.
Neil: It snowed while I was in the pub.
Neil: And then I just walked back home.
Neil: No.
Neil: You know, with a t-shirt.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Do you know what I mean?
Neil: And you're like, oh, yeah, I'm fine.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Right now, I just, if I look outside and it looks cold, I'm not very happy.
Neil: I don't like that very much.
Neil: But yes, I, I, I, I very much struggled today.
Neil: And you can hear my voice is a bit hard.
Neil: I think I've, I've, I've survived over Christmas.
Neil: I've not picked up anybody's colds and stuff, but, but I, I feel like I'm getting it.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And I had to do shouting today.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: You know, I mean, I'm that way.
Neil: Well, a little bit of that, a little bit of like, did you point in?
Neil: I do point in.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And, and, and it's a bit of that.
Neil: Um, but you have to like, do, you have to like do, do important things.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And, and explain how it works.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: To people that have not been before.
Neil: So yeah.
Neil: I swear that's not made my voice any better.
Neil: No.
Neil: And then came to do a podcast.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: So that's good.
Neil: Um, uh, I've, I, I know what we do next by the way.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Cool.
Neil: Um, so, uh, our biggest two podcasts ever in the history of Rufology ever are Pink Floyd
Neil: podcasts.
Neil: We, okay.
Neil: We did Dark Side of the Moon.
Neil: Yeah, we did.
Neil: Uh, we did Dark Side.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And, um, I want to do, I want to do Wish You Were.
Neil: We did the wall, didn't we?
Neil: We did the wall.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Um, and I want to do Wish You Were Here.
Neil: That's a great idea.
Neil: 19.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And that really comes off.
Neil: 75.
Unknown:
Neil: The album.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Um, and.
Neil: Oh, it flows nice off the back of this one.
Neil: That does.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: I think it'd be really interesting.
Neil: It's got, um, yeah, it's got shine on.
Neil: Welcome to the machine.
Neil: Have a cigar.
Neil: Wish You Were Here.
Neil: I play, Wish You Were Here is another song like this.
Neil: I'm, I play a lot, you know.
Neil: It's extraordinary.
Neil: It's a beautiful song.
Neil: Um, proper headphone album.
Neil: Yes.
Neil: Oh God, it is, isn't it?
Neil: Um, and yeah, I, I did.
Neil: Anyway, uh, I thought that's what we would do.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Um, and.
Neil: That's a great shout.
Neil: It'd be a nice one.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: I don't know.
Neil: I don't know anything about, I don't know anything about the band.
Neil: Well, I mean, we did, we did Dark Side, didn't we?
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: We did the wall.
Neil: Like the wall for me is kind of where, I mean, that's like a Roger Waters.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: Um, but Wish You Were Here was where Dave Gilmore took, took the helm, didn't he really?
Neil: A little bit.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: There's a, there's, um, there's a little bit of that.
Neil: Um, yeah, there was definitely a little bit of that going on here.
Neil: So I, yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Neil: I think, um, I, I tend to not like, I listened to Dark Side as an album.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: But there's a, uh, uh, a thing called A Foot in the Door.
Neil: Mm.
Neil: Um, like a compilation.
Neil: Yeah.
Neil: And I listened to that, um, a lot as well, wasn't a lot of Pink Floyd.
Neil: So I'm looking forward to this one.
Neil: Yeah, because good shout.
Neil: You've got rabies.
Neil: I'm going to die.
Neil: See you next week.
Neil: See ya.
Unknown:
Unknown: All right.
Unknown:
Unknown: All right.
Unknown:
Unknown: All right.
Unknown:
Unknown: All right.
Unknown:
Unknown: All right.
Unknown:
Unknown: All right.
Unknown:
Unknown: All right.
Unknown: Thank you.